Jaryn Miller — Surfacing Podcast

Episode 32: Jaryn Miller

Transcript

Lisa Welchman:

So, welcome to Surfacing, everyone. I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation that we had with Jaryn Miller. What did you think, Andy? I was just so delighted to have this conversation with him, and talk about inclusivity in design. In particular, inclusivity in service design, and that combined with meditation for me is like [inaudible 00:00:28] Yeah, my head's spinning. I don't even know what to say. There's so many things rattling along.

Andy Vitale:

No, I thought it was fantastic. I thought it was educational. I thought it was relatable, but a really feel good about where we're headed as an industry type of conversation, because we always talk about change, and how we hope to see change, and this is a chance to talk to someone that's actually living that each day, and moving that needle. So, it's super exciting.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's going to be good. I hope everyone enjoys this episode. Welcome, Jaryn Miller, thank you for coming onto the Surfacing Podcast. Andy, and I are delighted to have you be here.

Jaryn Miller:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for the conversation. Yes, I'm in honored company. Looking at all the guests, I'm excited to be here.

Lisa Welchman:

Well, that's a relative. I think everyone is an honored guest. That's what I believe. Everybody is an honored guest, so I'm going to kick it off. I have to admit that we, me, kind of cherry picked you out of the pile because you work at Headspace, and as anyone who's listened to this podcast one time has heard me say, "I'm going off to a meditation retreat", the amount of time I spend in retreat or whatever. So I was excited about that. But I'm also excited to hear about your experience in service design. So can you just tell us a little bit about what your current role is? And I think what's really important in these conversations we're having in this second season is what was the journey to get you there? How come you do what you do? So I think that would be a good way to start.

Jaryn Miller:

Yeah, I'm definitely getting a lot more attention now that I have that service design at Headspace in my LinkedIn, so I'm happy that, that's working out. So, I am the lead of the service design team, and I add inclusive service design to our tests at Headspace. And so a little background on Headspace. Headspace is a meditation, and mindfulness app where you can go on, and just watch content at your leisure. And then we also merged with another company called Ginger about a year ago, maybe two years ago, where they offer text coaching, and therapy, and psychiatry. And so now what's really great about Headspace is that we cover the full range of mental health, and mental wellness. So if you just have everyday stress, you can come on and watch some content or learn how to meditate. If you have anxiety, or depression, and you need some clinical services, we can offer that, too.

And that makes my job of service design really fun. Little background on service design. It's basically just trying to figure out how do we make this experience. Not every experience can be delightful, or happy or anything like that, but we can make it compassionate, we can make it intuitive, we can make it easy to interact with.

And so if you imagine someone comes in for everyday stress, and they're using the Headspace side of the world, and then a grandparent passes away, they lose a job, something happens, and they need a little bit higher level of care, or something different than imagine a world where we can help those people find care through the Ginger, through the care side of our organization.

And just trying to think about how that happens, and what are the different touchpoints within that. What do different people need as they're trying to seek out therapy, as they're trying to seek out things that are going to work for them. That's what I get to do, and it's pretty fun. I get to think of the whole system as a whole, and not just the screens, but also the human interaction, all the different interactions. That's what I like about it.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I still want to hear about how you got to this place, but just a quick follow on to that, is I don't know how long you've been at Headspace, but even if it hasn't been a bit, I'm not sure, I [inaudible 00:04:53]

Jaryn Miller:

About two years. I think I just hit my two years.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah. So, you hit right at, not the beginning of the pandemic, but in the that, and I'm just curious about... I would imagine that the demand for these types of services was just off the charts. My intuition definitely is that people were really, and so I'm just wondering from a service design perspective, how did that impact the work that you do? Or it was just more of the same?

Jaryn Miller:

Definitely. I came into Headspace at the peak of both a mental health awareness on the rise, and also racial justice awareness being on the rise. And it was interesting to see how both of those things played out within the company, and outside of the company. There was definitely more peak awareness from executives at different organizations of wanting to bring in something like Headspace, or back then they were separate companies bring in either a Headspace, or a Ginger or both. So it was definitely very interesting. And then layering on top of that, how do we make content, and experiences that are welcoming to everyone that acknowledge, before we started recording, you asked me what my pronouns were. How do we do things like that through content?

If someone has just different traumas that they're dealing with, or different experiences based on their race, their gender, their whatever, their identity, how do we create content that helps them feel seen? And I'm not on the content team, so in large part don't have to do some of those things, but it does show up in my work. So, for example, if you think about what's important for someone who's trying to seek therapy, it's going to be different for different people. And this is where my inclusive lens comes into the role. For black people, it's really important for me to try, and find a black therapist. Not all black people, but for me personally, and for many others, that's important.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah, same here.

Jaryn Miller:

For LGBTQ folks, trying to find someone who can identify with that experience, and speak to it. Culturally competent care is a new thing that people are talking about, and I think it implies that there's culturally incompetent care, which is true. And many people with different identities have been receiving culturally incompetent care, and that's keeping them away from it now. And that's making them not want to engage again. Even at the height of all of this where everyone's talking about it, and everyone's trying to seek it out. So, how do I account for that when someone logs into the app, and they're trying to find a therapist?

Andy Vitale:

So, was this inclusive lens on service design, was this something that you were able to create, and carve out that path to get there for the company to like, yes, we need that, or is this something that the company's like, wow, this is an area that we're lacking in? How can we make this work?

Jaryn Miller:

It was definitely both. And it was really lovely that it was both. I think through most of my career, it was me fighting for it, and trying to figure out what is this thing, and how do I bring this to the company in a way that the company wants it? And there was a lot of fighting early on in my career, and at Headspace I haven't had to do that. It's been really welcomed, and embraced, and encouraged. And so I think, like I said, they were in this moment where they were trying to figure out what do we do different? What do we do better? And recognizing like many of us, at that time, recognizing our own shortcomings, and trying to figure out what do we do? And so I pause there. So, I think it was on both sides. It was both something that I brought, uniquely, and something that they wanted, and fostered.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah. So, how did you get here? How did you get from anywhere to here? From your life from here? I know I was going to say from your university experience, or whatever, but everyone has a really interesting dynamic. This is a particularly interesting intersection of things. So, it's interesting. I think that's interesting.

Jaryn Miller:

It's been a journey. I like to say, so my dad growing up, he's a carpenter. And so I grew up seeing him fix things, and make things, and really interacting with the physical world, and making things. And so I did my own spin on that. And I went to school for product design, which is really hands-on in creating new physical products. And what I found was that in trying to solve a problem, the outcome always had to be a product. That was the only solution that was possible. And that didn't always work for me. Sometimes I would look into a problem, and I would find, okay, this is actually a new business opportunity, or this needs a new role here, or this just needs a sign, actually. It's not a full product, they just need a sign here.

And so I found service design, and at the same time, growing up, watching my dad make physical experiences, I grew up seeing my grandmother run nonprofits, and be really heavy in the church, and really heavy in her community, and building community, and building experiences that brought people together, and helped them build community, and learn from each other, and grow together and account for the fact that the rest of the world was oppressing them in many different ways. And so I started off on the physical side, and now I'm moving more towards where my grandmother led on designing community, and designing experiences that help people grow in whatever ways they would like to. And then the actual kind of design path was I started at a company, my first real service design role was at a company called Tipping Point Community. One of my favorite jobs I've ever worked, it was a fellowship, so it was six months, but we were working to try, and... Their big goal is end poverty in San Francisco, so it's an intentionally lofty goal.

Lisa Welchman:

I was about to say, that's huge. That's a really big one.

Jaryn Miller:

Exactly. And so they try, and do that through various different ways, and they're extremely effective at it. But one of the things they were trying to do was make more research, and development in the nonprofit space, or in the social sector because there isn't a lot of that. And so they started something called T Lab. And the group that I was on, we were looking at improving kindergarten readiness, and that's where we started. We ended in by making a doula program because a lot of the things that are leading to kindergarten readiness start at birth.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah, yeah.

Jaryn Miller:

Start it before birth.

Lisa Welchman:

And the care of the mother. And the stability of the mom. Yeah. That's amazing.

Jaryn Miller:

Exactly. Even down to the neurons. So, how a birthing person handles stress while they're pregnant, that changes how their pregnancy is going. That changes what the fetus is learning about how to manage stress. If you can come out, and build a secure attachment with your care provider, then that helps you later on. My favorite takeaway was if you're in survival mode, you can't learn your ABCs. And so there's been a focus throughout education around just learning more social emotional skills, bringing mindfulness into school, and helping people cope with the realities, and deal with things that are going on in outside of school so that they can be present in school. And for me, that was my introduction to mindfulness.

That was my introduction to trauma, and to lots of different things that I'm now working on. And it's been a really fun journey. And I think that was also my entry into realizing that mindfulness was fantastic, but not applicable to everyone. It didn't feel like it was inclusive to everyone. So that also fueled my desire to want to make it a little bit more welcoming to everyone, a little bit more inclusive to everyone.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah. I mean, that's, and then I'll stop yapping, because I think I've been hogging the conversation as usual. That last point that you made has been really valid. One of my teachers is Ruth King. And it's interesting, the mindfulness world has its own issues, right? In term in terms of [inaudible 00:13:23] inclusivity, or... Right. Yeah. And it's absolutely everywhere. I mean, I recently wrote a blog post about overcoming the shame of bias. And I think one of the interesting things that you said about the colleagues that you're working with was, is integral to that, which is where are we off? Just being able to sit with that, just being able to be with the idea of maybe we're not perfect, not getting defensive, but just being able to see it.

Jaryn Miller:

Exactly.

Lisa Welchman:

Can we just see where we're not doing a good job so that we can think about how we could be doing a better job, right? Not to shame, to blame, just to be with it or whatever. So, that's really fascinating. But anyhow, Andy, I'm sure you've got some other questions.

Andy Vitale:

Yeah, Jaryn, I mean this is fascinating just to understand that journey, and all the different lenses and what's really given you that perspective on inclusivity. I'm curious, what unrelated skills, or expertise do you have that really helps you hone in on that inclusivity, and helps you succeed at your job?

Jaryn Miller:

That is a good question. The first one that comes to mind is just being born black. So, really being born, and I grew up middle class in the suburbs of Philadelphia.

Lisa Welchman:

Yay. Middle class in the suburbs of Maryland, hey.

Jaryn Miller:

Hey!

Lisa Welchman:

Can we say scrapple? Yeah. Sorry.

Jaryn Miller:

I heard...

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah, that's the connection, scrapple. There you go. Only when we get between Philly and Baltimore, those are the only two places in the world you can even say that word. But anyhow, sorry. Yeah.

Jaryn Miller:

Yeah. So, I think recognizing, I have a thing when I do talks, I say, you can recognize when services are made for you versus when they work for you. So, I can experience something and say, mindfulness to me works for me, but it wasn't made for me. And I think I learned that skill as a child. So, recognizing that I went to Catholic school, I got a really great education, and I definitely knew that that education wasn't made for me. I just happened to be able to get inclusion into it. And that skillset has kind of followed me throughout my life. I've always been really interested in who people are, and what they do, and why they do the things they do.

And my mom is an extremely intelligent person, but also really struggles at academics. And so I grew up separating those two things, and recognizing that people's brains just work differently, and having to use metaphors to explain things to her in different ways. And that was also her way of teaching me. So she would ask me, "What did you learn at school today?" And she said, "Well, can you explain it differently? Okay, well what does that part mean?" And it was really her way of just testing whether I learned that thing, or not. Now, that I am a parent, I know some of the cheat codes she was using on me.

Lisa Welchman:

She's working it. Yeah, yeah. Any way you can. Any way you can.

Jaryn Miller:

Exactly. So, growing up with an identity and that I knew was outside of what was being designed for around me, I think made me really tune in to that, and has served me well in my career. And it's any varied identity can I think, relate to that. Whether you're women in a male dominated world, or dominated field, if it's an immigrant, or there's lots of different identities they can identify with that.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah, I mean, just shifting gears a little bit. So, this questions is the odd one, for us, sometimes when we're talking to people, and you've alluded to it a lot. But I want to ask it directly, which is talking about a lot of the challenges that we see in digital spaces right now. And you're talking about inclusivity, and I can use it, but it's not made for me, which is just... For me, it's body shape, height, or whatever. I picked myself up and moved from America to the Netherlands a couple of years ago where everybody's seven feet tall and I'm five three, so already nothing fit, because I was already short. And now I'm in a place where literally the counter heights are higher, and things like that. So, really it's interesting how these things come out in a lot of different ways, or I can't find a hair salon. I'm a black women with dreads, and I'm trying to find something... Trying to find someone who can do my hair, which is just something that people take for granted.

But anyhow, that's a whole nother conversation, and that's the physical world, but there's a lot of challenges in the digital space right now. And so I think your whole job is about this next question, which is what can someone in your position do to help shift some of the more negative dynamics, and amplify the positive ones? Let me ask that to you because you've talked around it, but not directly on it if that makes any good. So, amplifying what the good part, it's never going to be perfect, we know that. Because that state doesn't exist, and it's relative, right? What's perfect for one isn't perfect for another, but what can we do to amplify, I guess, raise the level of inclusivity, the openness, the adaptability to different circumstances, and minimize this tight one size fits all, I guess is maybe another way to talk about that.

Jaryn Miller:

Yeah, I think your hair example, I think is the conversation. So, you can go to school, and get a degree in a certification to be able to do hair without ever touching black hair, without ever learning its texture, or how to style it, or preferences, or how to wash it. And its different needs. And I think the one thing that all designers, and all researchers can agree on is what you ended with that different people have different needs. There is no one size fits all, there's one side fits as many as we can. That's what we're looking for. And I think as a designer, as a researcher, as a whoever, if you can just recognize who you're centering in what you're designing, and who you're centering by default, and who you're centering by accident, and then be intentional about who you want to center, then I think that will take you so much farther than trying to ignore it.

So, I think by embracing what we're naturally good at, and what we naturally bring to the party, which is we want to do research to understand how does this group use this new thing differently than this group? What does this group need differently than this group? And I think most people call it human-centered design. And I think you just need to focus more on who are the humans that you're centering in that design. And it's embracing what we're great at, but applying it to a way that many people are afraid to apply it, that's what I've seen.

Andy Vitale:

So, in doing that and really taking that lens on the specific people that you're trying to solve problems for, and that human centeredness, what are some of the ways that you've been able to get people aligned on where we're lacking focus on, and why we should focus on a certain group of people? A certain audience?

Jaryn Miller:

Yeah, one of my favorite ones is actually a really small thing. Whenever I am doing a user story or making up some kind of new journey, I use a name that's not European, that's not Eurocentric. And it's a small thing, but it really embeds itself in how you're talking about. If every example is Bob does this, and Bob does that, then you're designing for Bob and everyone knows what Bob looks like. He's six feet tall, he's middle income, he's Christian, he's probably straight, we know who Bob is. And if you're designing something for Davide, or Yesenia, or GK, if you're designing for different people, it really embeds in you, and it makes you have a, subconsciously, you take a pause when you're thinking about, well, what would this person's story be? And sometimes that can fall into stereotypes, but I think we do pretty good in our design of not leaning into stereotypes, but really just using it as a way to give yourself a moment to take a breath, and pause, and think about it.

Another one is designing for the hardest group to design for. So, if you're working in birth, and you can design an experience that works for a queer, black person, it's going to be great for everyone. Everyone else, they're going to crush it. It's going to be amazing. If you're designing... It's something that I learned in school, actually. We were talking about shoe design, and they were talking about, okay, well how can you find extreme users of this? So, mountain climbers, track, all these different examples, and that's the way that it was done there. But I think you can do the same thing for inclusivity.

And you can think about if we're designing this new street, how do we design it for a way that people in wheelchairs can use it? And then if it's easy for them, it's going to be easy for everyone else, too. And I think that's a lot of what I do in my work. So, again, the example of if you're trying to search for a therapist, how do I make it easy for someone who has different identities to find that, for people who have been locked out of healthcare for so long, if I can make it easy for them to find something, and to feel embraced, and welcomed in this new experience, then everyone else is going to enjoy it, too.

Andy Vitale:

I feel like that that's such a great tip. And I also look to the people who are in a situation where they're like, I work for this company that's strictly for profit, and I'm trying to get them to open up their aperture to realize that there's more value in looking at not the 80% but the 20%, because it improves everyone. But them thinking about how do we go speed to market with just the 80%, because it's enough of our market share that we need. So, what's some advice that you would give to someone that's like that light bulb went off, and said, that sounds like the perfect world, but I don't live in it, when we know that's actually the hard part, but advice for them would be great.

Jaryn Miller:

Yeah. I think, first acknowledging what you just said, that that is true, that is the reality, and that that's okay. That I live in a capitalist society that is focused on making money. And I think you have to embrace that. So, first I would say embrace the truth, the reality. Another one is everyone else is going for that same 80%. And the reason that most of the examples get bigger faster is because they're going for the 20% that no one else is going for, and that are really craving, and desiring, and needing this thing versus everyone else where it's just kind of like, "Ah, this is cool, this is fine. I'll spend $10 on this." There's a thing if you bring water to a desert, the thirsty people are going to really want that. And I think that same thing applies to a lot of the companies that we all work for.

If everyone's aiming at that same 80%, then that market is just overflowing with different options, and it's so easy to choose one versus the other. Whereas if you really focused on who needs it most, and who's going to benefit most, they're going to appreciate it more. They're going to have more brand loyalty, they're going to be willing to take us a bigger step towards grabbing that thing. So, we ran a survey with employers asking what was important to them in thinking about buying a new wellness, or mental health benefit. And one of the things that I explicitly added on there was diverse providers just is that important? Is that a nice to have, a need to have? Things like that when you're considering something. And it was a differentiator. It was no one else has this. And it's something that he hear our employees wanting, and requesting, and they're desperately looking for this. And no one's advertising that they have it, and I don't think they have it. And so I think that's something that we can do in our jobs.

Andy Vitale:

So, Jaryn, just curious, you've touched upon a lot of things and you've given a lot of good media advice to people that are trying to do better. I'm curious, what are a few things that you wish that someone had told you when you started out on this journey?

Jaryn Miller:

Yeah, I think, for me, it's recognizing that there are different brands of design, and different types of design, and recognizing that inclusive design or accessibility design, they're all their own unique disciplines. And I didn't know that coming out of school, I thought there was only one brand of design that I had to fit myself into this box. But there's actually completely unique skills, and unique training, and knowledge and insight that you have to have in order to design for accessibility. [inaudible 00:27:08] And the same goes for the work that I do. I have to have unique knowledge, in order to be kind of at this intersection of social justice, and tech, or to be at the intersection of civic design, and technology. All these things are different types of designers, and different brains really thrive there, and you need different skills. And I think going back to what I said about human-centered design, when that was made, it was centering a specific type of human.

And for me to do design in a way that centers different types of humans, it's a separate discipline. And I didn't know that. And I think being able to progress in my career, and find my tribe, and find other people that were challenging those norms, and challenging the way things were set up, it has been really enlightening, and really fun, and really exciting. And I had a job posting, I was hiring a little while ago and I added [inaudible 00:28:09] inclusive is just kind of embedded throughout the job description. And we had 600 applications. It was a lot. And most of them, a good amount of them, I think it was almost 700, actually. But a good amount of them reached out just because they saw inclusion was embedded in the job description, and that's what they wanted to do. And I don't think I would've gotten that same traction if it just said service design. And that was really exciting for me just as an individual to see that this is a growing field, and it's own distinct field that people are excited about, and want to be in.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah. Well, my hope would be, in listening to you say that, it reminds me of that Tony Morrison quote where she's talking about the default is white. If you don't name someone's identity, you're usually talking about a white male. So, my hope would be that in the future that what you're talking about will actually overtake the existing paradigm of design. Because from what you said prior to that, if it's going to work for the 20%, it's going to work for everybody, and it's going to work great for everybody. And so that's what I'm hoping. I'm hoping that what you do will become the norm.

Jaryn Miller:

I hope so, too. We'll see.

Lisa Welchman:

We shall. We'll see. You'll see. Maybe I'm older than you, so I may not see, but I hope I see more of it. How about that? I hope that I see a lot more of it. [inaudible 00:29:44] takes time to change things.

Jaryn Miller:

It does. And it's a thing that it'll never be perfect. And I guess I've been eating our mindfulness dog food. It'll never be perfect, but the beauty is in the journey. And I think being a part of the journey, and finding other people in the same journey has been really delightful. And people like yourselves inviting me on here to spread the word about it, it's pretty fun.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah. Well, it's been a delight having you. I really appreciate your time, and this was a great conversation. Thanks a lot.

Andy Vitale:

Yeah, thanks so much, Jaryn.

Jaryn Miller:

Thank you. Appreciate it.