Episode 7: Creativity for Makers with Denise Jacobs
In this episode, hosts Lisa Welchman and Andy Vitale speak to Denise Jacobs, who is a speaker, author, and creativity evangelist.
This episode saw a discussion of Denise's evolution from digital maker to creative support system for the digital maker community, her book, Banish Your Inner Critic, and Denise's latest project, which focuses on how leaders can curate an environment that fosters creativity.
Transcript
Announcer:
Welcome to Surfacing. In this episode, hosts Lisa Welchman and Andy Vitale speak to Denise Jacobs, who is a speaker, author, and creativity evangelist. This episode saw a discussion of Denise's evolution from digital maker to creative support system for the digital maker community. Her book, Banish Your Inner Critic, and Denise's latest project, which focuses on how leaders can curate an environment that fosters creativity.
Denise Jacobs:
Okay. How's Charlotte treating you?
Andy Vitale:
I haven't seen much of it because of the pandemic. I'm literally hunkered down. But I feel like the last time, literally the last time I saw you was in Minneapolis.
Denise Jacobs:
It was in Minneapolis, and we went to go and have Ethiopian food, which was [crosstalk 00:01:19].
Andy Vitale:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
Why does every guest have a food connection, Andy?
Andy Vitale:
I don't know. It's how we connect. That's how Lisa and I met. We met at a conference and had dinner in a hookah bar with Kevin Hoffman.
Denise Jacobs:
That's funny. Wow.
Lisa Welchman:
It's groovy. Well, it's good to have you on the podcast, Denise. I wanted to talk to you. You and I did something together-
Denise Jacobs:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
For one of Lou Rosenfeld's events. Enterprise UX, or something like that. We were on a panel together.
Lisa Welchman:
But on that panel, we didn't actually get to talk a lot about the work that you do, and so-
Denise Jacobs:
We did not get to talk about the work that I do.
Lisa Welchman:
... really want it to talk to you about what you do and all of that other kind of stuff. So, thanks for accepting our invitation.
Denise Jacobs:
Of course. I was just like, "Wait, the both of you guys together? Yes, please." Thank you very much for asking.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah. We've been collaborating since the pandemic, since right before the pandemic, so it's been an exciting just over a year. But yeah, definitely, thanks for coming on with us. For me, I know you, which everyone knows you kind of, so that's wonderful, but what's going on with you? What are you up to?
Denise Jacobs:
Well, the thing that... And it's interesting, I've had a lot of mixed emotions about this and have felt a lot of professional guilt about this, but that, really, what's going on, like the pandemic has really prompted this huge nesting response from me. So, in the last, I wouldn't say a year, but probably since May, I've just been doing... Well, actually probably since April, like first started with working on my garden and trying to get my yard and my garden together, and having the aspiration of making a food forest in my backyard, which I have a lot of things in pots, but I haven't actually planted them in the ground yet because the raised beds that I was planning to build last year are going to be built this year instead.
Denise Jacobs:
But also, just getting things fixed in my house. I put on this very cool, a wood slat facade on my house with this very, very cool upcycled cedar that I got for free from a guy on Offer Up. I mean, it's like little by little, I'm getting these things done that I've been wanting to do for years, and now I have a painter here painting a bathroom that has been in the state of peeling disarray for years now. And it's like, "It's not peeling in there," and I'm like, "What else can I..." So, I'm just like really finally taking up the full amount of space of my house.
Lisa Welchman:
Oh, that's fantastic. I know that feeling. Clearing piles, making it your home. But you were critical of yourself about that-
Denise Jacobs:
I was critical of myself because-
Lisa Welchman:
... that's reminding me of this great book that I just read called Banish Your Inner Critic, that-
Denise Jacobs:
I've heard it's really good.
Lisa Welchman:
... it's by this woman. Maybe she doesn't know what she's talking about, but it was pretty good. And so-
Denise Jacobs:
Yeah. Yeah, no-
Lisa Welchman:
It's amazing how you can write a whole book about something and then fall into your own traps anyway.
Denise Jacobs:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And the thing is, is that, I'm so prone, and I know this about myself and so it's one of those things where I wrote the book because I needed it. It wasn't like I wrote the book because I had all the answers and I had basically reached a state of nirvana. I wrote it because these were all things that I had struggled with so much, and I was like, "I want answers for myself to help me have tools to deal with this, these issues and these feelings. And I bet other people probably want these tools too." And every time I would speak on it, people would be like, "It was like you were in my head and you were there when I was trying to write my dissertation and I was doing my MFA and me and my job every day and me in a meeting last week." And I was like, "Yeah, because this is a pretty universal thing."
Denise Jacobs:
So, I think for me, part of the criticism, and the thing is, I work for myself so that I can do things like this. Right? But then I do things like, "Oh, I'm going to spend like two or three days a week working, and then I'm going to spend the rest of the time, plus the weekends, getting caught up on all these projects," because you can't do them in two days.
Denise Jacobs:
And then there's this thing called rest, I've heard tell, of this thing called resting and not doing stuff all the time, which I definitely want to explore, too. And I've heard that we can [crosstalk 00:06:36] for that.
Lisa Welchman:
I don't know, Denise, that all sounds kind of outrageous. I mean, it's one thing to have a balance between work and taking care of your environment, but you put resting on top of it and it seems a little crazy.
Denise Jacobs:
I know. It's crazy talk. So, yeah, so I feel critical because I have a lot of people in my cohort, a lot of colleagues have books coming out now. And you know that writing a book is not the hard part of the process. Marketing the book is the really heavy lifting, I think. And so, it's like it's a very visible time now for all these people like, "Promote my book. I'm doing a summit, and I've invited all these people to come and dap-a-doo, and this and that. And I'm on this podcast, and I'm speaking here and all this." And I'm just like, "I am cleaning air conditioner vents." That's what I'm doing.
Andy Vitale:
It's amazing that the pandemic has driven a lot of digital people to do analog things.
Denise Jacobs:
Absolutely.
Andy Vitale:
For me, we bought a veggie pod, and it came late and we couldn't put it together. It's like you're doing, you could plant in it, but it doesn't sit on the ground. It's like a container for it.
Denise Jacobs:
Yeah, I've seen them, and it's got watering and everything connected to it.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah. Exactly.
Denise Jacobs:
They look cool.
Andy Vitale:
We're finally getting ours set up a year after we bought it.
Denise Jacobs:
Nice. But yeah, but I think there is that... And I think, honestly, in the digital industry that we're in, I mean, I think a lot of us already even without the pandemic, have gotten to a place where it's like, "I need to do something with my hands. I can't just be in my head all the time. I can't just be doing all this strategic problem solving in my head. I need something to balance out." And so, I know we all know a lot of people who are musicians and craftspeople and everything just naturally anyway, as a counterbalance or a balance to all of the intellectual work that we do.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah. So, Denise, I mean, you started out as a digital maker, and along the way, you've transitioned to basically become a support system for digital makers.
Denise Jacobs:
Yeah! That's a really good-
Andy Vitale:
Yeah. I just want to hear more about that transition.
Denise Jacobs:
Yeah. I mean, I was going along, minding my business, being a front end developer type, and actually, honestly, if I think about it, I've always been a support person for makers, if that makes any sense. So, way back a billion years ago in 1998, or actually '97, I started making handmade herbal soaps and I started selling them, and then people were like, "What's in it?" And I was like, "It's super easy. I can show you how to make it." And then I started teaching people how to make herbal soap. And I discovered that I loved teaching so much that that actually became... I mean, that wasn't the only thing that I was doing, but that actually became like the primary focus of my soap making business, was to be teaching people how to make soap rather than making soap and selling it.
Denise Jacobs:
And when I was doing that, I also, because I discovered that I loved teaching so much, I was like, "Oh, well I want to teach other classes. What other things can I teach that are things that I like to do that I think are interesting?" And so, I ended up creating this whole catalog, if you will, of herbal-related craft courses and other craft courses: recycled paper, stationary making, and herbal bath product making, and organic gardening, and all of these good things. And I think at some point I used to refer to... I'd talk to people about it, and I'd say, "Oh, I'm like a creativity midwife, and so I'm here to help catch people's creativity babies. They come to my workshops and they get to play creatively for like three hours." And it helps, it stimulates this.
Denise Jacobs:
I find it really interesting that then I go into web design... I mean, I was already doing web design and web development at that point in time, but then I ended up, again, eventually teaching it. And then it was like I was helping people catch their creativity babies, but in terms of digital making. Right? And then when I wrote my book, The CSS Detective Guide, then I had to, essentially, catch my own creativity baby. I had to kind of be my own... There was no midwife there, so I had to birth the baby myself.
Lisa Welchman:
How was that different being on the other side of that? Because it's really easy to tell other people to do things, but then there's experiencing it yourself. How was that different?
Denise Jacobs:
So, the difference-
Lisa Welchman:
Or what did you learn?
Denise Jacobs:
Well, so what I learned was basically the difference was the dealing with all the fears around creating, which I don't know if I had really tuned into when I was doing the craft classes and stuff like that. I knew that I had my own source, my own experience of creative anxiety, wondering if I was creative enough, wondering if the work that I did was any good, that sort of thing. For some reason, I don't know if I necessarily made the connection with that that was something that other people were going through when they potentially were taking my courses, and then when I was writing my book, it was something that I was confronted with every day.
Denise Jacobs:
So, doing that and being my own creativity doula and midwife made it so that it really put me in touch with this process of, "Oh, you really need to deal with these fears. You can't get to this other side, unless you deal with, basically, your inner critic. You can't get to the other side unless you deal with your self-doubt." And then it forced me to either look up or develop techniques for being able to get past it. I mean, that's a lot of the stuff that I teach, actually, is based on my own experience of having to figure out, "Okay, I'm writing again today. I'm afraid I'm not a good writer or that it's not good enough or anything. Okay, how about this? Let's just go ahead and just... I'm just going to give myself permission to write a really crappy sentence, and then I'm going to let myself write a really crappy paragraph. And then, you know what? The whole chapter is going to be crap, and I don't care. I'm just going to write it."
Denise Jacobs:
And having tricks like that helped me actually get over the finish line and help me get to the point where I could. And then, later on it was like, "Oh, it actually wasn't that bad, and that's actually what editing is for and what editors are for." So, it was really interesting to, in doing this myself for myself, like I said, forced me into realizing all this stuff that eventually ended up creating a new path for me.
Lisa Welchman:
Hearing you talk about the inner critic in this way reminds me, when I think of digital makers, that part of the challenge is... You said two things. Give yourself permission to make messes and not be perfect, and I would say that the digital maker community is full of that. Right? But then you said something, the part that I don't think the digital community does, which is you can always go back and fix it. Right? Right? But I don't think that I don't think that the way that that community is architected, that that second component, they're all about this creativity and free and no inner critic like, "It must be great. I'm great. Look at this thing I built. It runs. I'm great." But there's not a lot of this counterbalancing part, which is what you're talking about, which is you're being free because you know that that's not the last iteration.
Denise Jacobs:
That's right. That's right. And also, you're being free because maybe you don't know, but maybe you recognize or you sense that nothing is going to come out if you don't open those gates. Right? The process is tortured when you don't let things flow, when you're self-critical, when you're self-judgmental, when you're afraid of other people's judgment and stuff, that's when the process is tortured and painful. When you just let things out, it's not tortured and painful at all.
Denise Jacobs:
As a matter of fact... And I won't say as a matter of fact, but as an interesting aside or tangent, I have discovered a new to me artist, and I'm kind of obsessed with her work. And it's this woman, you probably have heard of her, her name is Hilma Af Klint. So, she's not Klimt. She was born in the mid 1800s, like in 1864, and basically started really coming into her own with abstract art in the early 1900s. And so, she predates Kandinsky and Klee and all these people, all those people.
Lisa Welchman:
I Googled it. Oh my gosh.
Denise Jacobs:
Yeah. All of those people got inspiration from her stuff.
Lisa Welchman:
Oh, it's beautiful.
Denise Jacobs:
Oh my God. I'm so obsessed with her work.
Lisa Welchman:
Well, because it's gorgeous. We'll have to put some in the show notes for this, because they're just really beautiful pieces.
Denise Jacobs:
Just beautiful pieces. And she would do these things. One of the things that's really cool, and this is what led me to talking about her, is that she was part of these theosophical society, she was actually part of this group of women called The Five, and they were these women who were artists, but they were also part of this more spiritual bent.
Lisa Welchman:
That was a great time for that stuff. Yeah.
Denise Jacobs:
So, one of the things that Hilma would do, at some point in time in her career, instead of being super in control of stuff, it would basically be like she would just channel, she would open herself up and whatever came through her, that's what she would paint. That's what she would draw, and that's what she would paint. And then you see the results of it, this just beautiful, organic, all of this, the rich colors, all these layers, all these layers of meaning and depth and the power of opening yourself up to what can come through you. I mean, it's such a powerful thing, and yet, so many of us are trying to be so in control of what comes through us. And then we're wondering why creating doesn't feel good.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah. What I want to understand more, tying it back to design and development current day, like creating products, what's the balance between putting things out there and testing and learning, and then actually going back and iterating because it's not finished? Instead of just checking it off of a box, it's done and moving onto the next thing.
Denise Jacobs:
Yeah. And the funny thing is, is that I personally, because of just the way my own psychological makeup is constructed, I can't understand not wanting to go back and making something right or useful or highly functional or whatever. Right? I can't understand why somebody wouldn't want to iterate on something. Maybe it's part of my perfectionist tendencies or whatever, but it's like, when I do something, I make something, I'm like, "Oh, okay. It's this constant..." And this actually speaks to more of an agile approach where it's like you're constantly iterating. You do it, you test it, you see, "Okay, how does this work? Okay, this doesn't work that well, or this part does work and this part doesn't, or whatever. Okay. Let's fix this. How can we fix this."
Denise Jacobs:
For me, that's the most important thing of it, because you want to be making things... We're making digital products, we're creating these things that are there for people to use. We want people to be able to use them well. Right? One of the things that I like to tell people is when they're having trouble coming up with creative ideas, to start writing down 10 ideas a day. It's something that I got from James Altucher, and he calls it being an idea machine. And I'm like, write down 10 ideas a day and do bug lists, like things that bug you. Right? And so, when you're paying attention to things that bother you, the things that don't work well or aren't quite right, or whatever, then you have the opportunity to make them... You make them right and make them work.
Denise Jacobs:
Also, from a, again, back to a digital producers or creators perspective, that will actually give you more market share, better ROI, more loyal customers, happier clients, better reviews. I mean, all of these things. And I've often talked to people, people who aren't necessarily tech savvy or don't consider themselves tech savvy, and they'll say, "Well, I don't know anything about user experience." And I'm like, "Yes, but you know when something bothers you and you know when something doesn't work. You know when you go to a website or you go to order something and you abandoned the order process in the middle because there was something annoying about it or something that you didn't understand."
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, you made me fill my name in one too many times. Right?
Denise Jacobs:
Or there something that wasn't clear or you had to look too hard. I recently started using this thing called Harvest Box, Harvest something or another. Anyway. Happy Harvest? Happy Harvest? Anyway, one of these produce delivery things where they give you ugly produce. And I recently lost my debit card and I had to cancel it and get a new one, and so they were like, "Your debit card's been declined." I was like, "Oh yeah. Right. Okay." And I went in there, and they were like, "Okay, go to the page where it's the account information." And can I tell you guys, you guys will totally appreciate this, they have the account information page, it has all the stuff with my name and my address and everything, and then it has on the second thing, it says, "Payment information," but there's no place... It just says it in text, "Payment information." There's no link or anything like that. Then it's got a captcha box that says, "I'm not a robot."
Lisa Welchman:
Oh my God, that thing, man, if I could go find the screwdriver that undoes that robot.
Denise Jacobs:
But there's nothing that says, "Click here to be able to access your account information," it just has this like... And I swear to you, I went to that page... I'm a tech savvy person. I used to do UX. I speak at UX conferences all the time. It took me like four times. I'm going to the stupid page before I was like, "How do I get to my account information?" And finally I clicked on the, "I'm not a robot," and then my credit card information showed up. And I was like, "You got to be fucking kidding me."
Lisa Welchman:
That's like the most counterintuitive thing. I'm not a robot, and here's your... I mean, one of the things, I want to go back to one of the things you said a few minutes back, which is your psychological makeup means you want to iterate, you want to improve on things, and that you maybe said this, or I inferred it from what you said, that you would imagine most people would want that. I think I'm disagreeing with that a little bit and thinking, we had a conversation with Per Axbom, I can now say his name.
Denise Jacobs:
He's so great.
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah. He's great. We had a conversation with him, and we ended up talking a lot about compassion. And so, I do think, and this might be a little bit judgment but it's not a rich judgment that I'm about to make, I'm just saying this as a fact, I believe that there's a set of people who just don't operate in that zone. They're like, "Look at the cool thing I made," and that's the end of it.
Denise Jacobs:
End scene.
Lisa Welchman:
Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's just, "Look at the cool thing I made. It works," and then that's it, it's over for them. As opposed to, "Wow, can I share it with other people?" And if this person is using it, are they enjoying using it? I think there's a whole set of, in particular, digital makers that do not continue to have that conversation.
Denise Jacobs:
That's like making a meal and setting it in front of somebody and walking away.
Lisa Welchman:
People do that.
Denise Jacobs:
Right. And I'm just like, "Don't you want to know how they liked it [inaudible 00:25:13]."
Lisa Welchman:
Maybe next time I can make it better. Yeah.
Denise Jacobs:
It's like making something and not tasting it. I can't. I can't with these folks.
Andy Vitale:
It's wild, There's a lot of design Twitter arguments about new design tools, and I love to see people play and experiment and learn and share that knowledge. But I'm seeing so many tweets about people that are building like, "I could create Connect Four using Figma now. This is so great." It's like, why are we using it for that? We could be designing a website for a nonprofit, and I'm just baffled by that.
Denise Jacobs:
And like you were saying, like you were saying, Lisa, some people have that more civic mindedness and some people have a more self-centered mindedness, or self-absorbed mindedness. I also may think it, hopefully, maybe it's an age thing, maybe it's a seniority level in the industry and in your career, where maybe when you're younger you feel like you need to prove stuff to people and you're drawn to the sparkly chicken. And then when you get older and you get more in your career like, "I don't have to prove anything to anybody. How can I help folks with this skill that I have, or this skillset that I have?"
Lisa Welchman:
I like people who are younger. I enjoy that energy, and I think there's just incredible amount of creativity that comes out of that space. And I think one of the things that's missing, particularly in the digital maker community, but just overall generationally, at least in the US and Western Europe, so I'm going to generalize across the two cultures that I know the best, is just this sense of mentorship. It's bi-directionally the case. There's a lot of things that people who have been around the block could help inform with younger people, not in terms of, "Do it the way we did it," or, "We know more than you," but just like, "You know what? If you do that, it's not going to work. And here's why." And vice versa, feeding that combination of youthful excitement and energy plus knowledge and expertise that only comes with years, could create incredible products and experiences for people. But instead, we're fighting with each other. Millennials versus Gen-
Denise Jacobs:
Calling each other names.
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah [crosstalk 00:27:40] all that other kind of stuff. But anyhow-
Denise Jacobs:
And also, I think, too, then there's all the ageism that's prevalent, and so, then, there are fewer opportunities for people who are seasoned professionals to be able to have that mentorship relationship with people, because they're just getting replaced-
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah. They're not in the system anymore.
Denise Jacobs:
... and they're getting replaced by [crosstalk 00:28:07].
Lisa Welchman:
All this conversation really reminds me of my favorite chapter in your book, which is chapter eight, Step Into Your Creative Power. It was really helpful for me. I mean, I'm pretty good at creativity, but it was a really helpful book for me to read, and I learned some things and some techniques, so thank you.
Denise Jacobs:
Ooh, tell me, tell me. I want to hear. I'm excited.
Lisa Welchman:
The reminder that I needed was the don't be a perfectionist one, which is probably what I'm going to do is good enough, and you can iterate on it, which is why I was talking about that earlier. Just that I know that, but it's amazing how long that stuff hangs with you for the rest of your life. But this chapter eight thing for me was really resonant because I work with digital teams all the time, and it's talking about what conditions need to be in place in order for you to do all of the things that you recommend that you do in your book? What is that? And I thought, "How often on a digital team, a maker team inside of an organization, are those conditions there?" It's one thing to say, "Oh, I'm going to do this because I play piano and I want to become a better piano player, and I'm going to make it so I'm down on the block playing in a club. And I'm going to will myself into that very personal active thing. Jump all the hurdles for that."
Lisa Welchman:
It's another thing to be inside of an organization, and Andy can probably speak to this because I haven't worked inside of a large organization since 1999, because I can't really deal with those dynamics particularly well over the long-term, but I really wondered what your reflections were about... When you think about that particular situation of being at work and trying to express your creativity, being in a container that has constraints and cultural, behavioral, and business constraints, is that any different than someone who's just trying to become a better painter on their spare time, or do you think all the same things can apply the same?
Denise Jacobs:
No. I mean, I think it's really difficult when you're in a... Okay. So, let me take this back. We're just going full circle for all kinds of things, but I'm in my newest room of my house that I have reclaimed because I no longer have housemates. I'm officially housemate free as of last month. And so, I've turned this room, I call it the nap room, the sitting room, the second room. But one of the things that is prevalent in this room is that I have plants, and similar to a plant, if a plant is in a situation where it's not getting its needs met, if it doesn't have enough light, if it doesn't have enough moisture, or if it doesn't have the right temperature, it's not going to do well, it's not going to flourish.
Denise Jacobs:
And similarly, if you find yourself in a situation where your plant requirements aren't being met, like the culture is off or the management is off, or the team isn't a good fit or whatever, then you're not going to be able to flourish, too. And you could do all kinds of tricks and techniques and tactics and stuff like that, but they'll only get you so far. Right? If you need more sunlight, you need more sunlight, and them's the facts. Trying to compensate with other things is not going to make up for the fact that you just need more sun, metaphorically speaking that is.
Denise Jacobs:
So, I do think it also is that there is a certain level of being honest with yourself and having these moments where you're just like, "Oh, I really actually can't thrive in this environment." And sometimes you don't know that until you have changed environments. Right? Sometimes that's not something, it's not the kind of knowledge that you have until you're in a difference and you're like, "Oh my gosh, that was really rough. I thought it was okay, but it clearly is not. It clearly was not. And I'm able to thrive now." So, certainly the stuff that I've written about in my book and the exercises and all that stuff are incredibly effective, and then I will say up to a certain point. Right? Then there's that.
Denise Jacobs:
The cool thing is, is that I just finished filming, at the beginning of February, I just finished filming my latest LinkedIn learning course, and that one is going to be... I don't know what the final title of it's going to be, but I think it's going to be something like Creativity for Leaders or Developing a Creativity Mindset for Leaders. And it's designed to help, this one and the one that just came out in January, which is called the Business Case for Creativity, are designed to help leaders think about creativity differently. The Business Case for Creativity is designed to help leaders start to set up the infrastructure. They make the brain shifts so they can start to set up the infrastructure to create a culture of creativity. And then the Creativity for Leaders is to help leaders, first of all, get in touch with their own creativity and then, second of all, start to create an environment that helps to promote creativity for the people who they work with, that work for them.
Andy Vitale:
I think that's a great space only because... I mean, I lead designers, so being a designer, a design leader, our space is full of creativity, but having to teach that to other leaders and having to introduce them to our environment and let them be part of it and learn by doing and getting excited and being inspirational is great. There's another piece of it as leading creatives or designers, front end developers, pretty much anyone that's creating products, what I see is like... It's like how do you create this environment? Obviously psychological safety is key and transparency, but also you could create a culture of learning, but there are people that are like, "I don't want to learn anymore. I'm good at what I do, and this is what I want to do." And then there are others that are like, "I just want to keep learning and growing." So, it's this balance of an environment.
Denise Jacobs:
Right. And then the other thing I was going to say, too, Andy, to what you were saying is, I think especially with leaders and leaders in business, especially when they're in departments that aren't considered creative departments, also I think that there's this false dichotomy, there's this false narrative around what's "creative" and what's not creative, and calling teams creative teams and other teams not creative. Really? So, I think that that's actually one of the first things that needs to be addressed, is this barrier or differentiator between what's considered creative and what isn't. And then, also, helping leaders who are in areas that are aren't typically or traditionally considered creative, helping them see, first of all, where they are creative, how their teams and the departments are creative, and then also helping them understand in their own language why it's important, why creativity's important and why it's a critical skill and something for them to focus on, or another thing for them to focus on, for them and their teams to be able to produce better and function better.
Denise Jacobs:
And I think that's the other thing, too, is making sure that it's explained in a way or that the language, like I said, around it is that this isn't this thing that's over there for this other team. This is something that is valuable and important for the entire organization on multiple levels, on a cultural level, on a financial level, on a productivity level, et cetera.
Andy Vitale:
100%. I've worked with some of the most creative people who were scientists and in finance and legal teams that understood how to do things differently and could take those learnings and teach other teams how to think differently. Like you said, creativity, everyone is creative in one way or another. They have things about them. It's just unlocking that.
Denise Jacobs:
Exactly. Exactly.
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah. I want to shout out to the poor little person that doesn't want to learn and doesn't want to change. Just because I'm designing teams all the time. Right? And so, yes, everyone should be trying to do more and making sure that they're working well, et cetera, but there's also a place for those people. Right? And so, sometimes you actually need someone and in a spot where they're literally going to do the same thing over and over again and they're happy about that. And maybe when they come to work every day, that's not really how they actualize themselves creatively. Maybe they go home and they play the lute and they're just coming to work to do it. And I think what can be really beautiful about team design is figuring out where you must have that creativity and where you must not, and not trying to make everybody all the same. And being super inclusive and taking advantage of who people are and where they are.
Lisa Welchman:
I think we were talking about this before, Andy, about just you were telling me that you hire people. Right? You hire people first, and then you figure out where is this person going to fit in into this machine, as opposed to just basically engineering the machine and then making people fit to it. And so, that's just my little shout out to the poor person who wants to put stamps on postcards all day long and then go home and probably does something really amazing, or maybe not. So, it's fantastic.
Lisa Welchman:
I mean, just back to this, I'm really fascinated by this whole piece that we maybe we've talked to death already, but I want to touch back on it again, is just like creativity in the digital maker space. And it's just such a juicy topic in my head because of what we talked about at the beginning of the podcast, which is there's this full set of people who, I don't know, you can tell me, they're making a lot of stuff. I don't know if that's creativity. They're out putting a lot of stuff in there doing it in an agile way, and it's coming really fast. I don't necessarily mean that they're creating things, but I don't know if that's actually creativity or just production. Whether or not they're just writing a lot of code really, really fast is different than that.
Lisa Welchman:
And I'm just really curious because you know both of these things, you know creativity and you know the digital maker world, and you know the logistics of that world. What do you just think about that dynamic of what's going on, what's driving all of that frenzy? And is it a positive creativity process, or is it both, or whatever? I just would love to hear you talk about that.
Denise Jacobs:
You ask outstanding questions, I just want to say for the record. I mean, I feel like that's actually a hard spot because... I mean, what's driving that? I feel like so much of what's driving that is profit and growth and all this stuff. I mean, like business growth and everything and market share and things like that. And in terms of whether that is creative, I mean, I feel like the answers is probably like sometimes, sometimes it is creative, and sometimes it's like the digital maker equivalent of putting stamps on envelopes. Right? That actually brought to mind my last housemate, works for the Red Cross, and they have a lot of volunteers, and she had one volunteer that he was really good at shredding paper. That was his thing. Like he-
Lisa Welchman:
Someone has to do it.
Denise Jacobs:
And he loved doing it. He ended up having to go up north to live with his family. But he'd talked to Kamala and he'd be like, "Well, I mean, who's taking care of the paper shredding now because, I mean... I mean, are they doing a good job, or are they..." And it's like that paper shredding was like, that was his thing. And I was like, it's kind of cool that somebody likes that and that's his thing, and that we know that we can always give paper shredding to whatever his name was, Kevin or whatever, and he'll take care of it and he's going to do a great job with shredding the paper. It's not going to pile up because he likes to do it.
Denise Jacobs:
In some ways I feel like there is a place for the cranking out, and then there is a place for craftsmanship and making things better. And they serve different audiences. Another thing, back to what's happening in my own personal life, I have gotten really into... I haven't actually started doing it yet, but I've been watching a lot of videos on refurbishing furniture. So, I've been watching, this guy has a YouTube channel, it's called Dashner Design & Restoration, and he makes these lovely 10 to 15 minute videos where he finds some mid-century modern piece for $5 in a thrift store and then he'll strip it all down and fix anything that needs to be fixed. He'll re-glue the joints and replace dowels and all this stuff. And then he'll stain it again, and then he'll seal it. And first of all, it was one of the most relaxing, meditative, wonderful videos. I watch that to relax now.
Denise Jacobs:
But then, also, it's like the craftsmanship and the care and the attention that he puts into every single thing that he refinishes is just lovely and inspiring and stuff. But then, I also know that there are people who will take one of those things, and instead of lovingly restoring it to its former glory, will paint it and put chunk paint on it and put it different-
Lisa Welchman:
Bedazzle it.
Denise Jacobs:
... pulls on it and bedazzle it. And actually, I'm part of this group on Facebook, this woman she doesn't do it with mid-century modern pieces, for which I'm grateful, but she'll get old pieces and she'll paint them, but she'll make these beautiful, intricate paintings where it's like flower... And even like when you open up a drawer, the drawers when they open have a painting steep that is continuous. I mean some gorgeous stuff. And I'm like, "What? I'm not mad at you for doing this amazing paint job on this piece that probably would have been..." I also would have loved to just see it stained maple and coated with a clear set and coat.
Denise Jacobs:
So, my own professional concern for people is that I want them to figure out how to get in touch with the creativity that they need and to be able to do whatever it is that they do the best that they can. Right? Then in an ideal and perfect world, if everybody's doing that, then you are able to design these wonderful teams, like you design Lisa, where you've got all of the people in the right place and do like you do, Andy, where you hire the person and then you figure out where they go, but it's because they are actualized enough of themselves and really acting in their brilliance and really bringing forth their creativity that you're able to put them in the right place. Right? And that they're able to do the work and then collectively that that team, or that group, is able to collectively create the product or create the service, or whatever it is, that is really successful that works for people, that helps people, and all of these things. I mean, that's how I see the chain of causality working.
Lisa Welchman:
On behalf of all the digital makers, thanks for doing all of that work. That's a very generous thing to do with people, what you do. Right? It's a very personal and generous thing, so I'm sincere when I say thanks for all that.
Denise Jacobs:
No-
Andy Vitale:
Definitely.
Denise Jacobs:
... my pleasure. One of the things early on when I first started doing this, and Andy, you had said this earlier, you support digital makers and doing stuff, and I remember thinking, "I want to be like the..." I don't know if I said like the therapist or the personal/professional development person for people in the web industry. I think when I started coming into this creativity inner critic stuff, I was like, "Oh, okay. I don't really want to make websites anymore. That's not my jam." I was like, but for people who are making stuff and all the people that I know are making stuff, all of y'all, all of us are struggling with an critic and perfectionism and procrastination and imposter syndrome and all this stuff. I was like, "I want to help y'all deal with all of that. I want to help y'all get to the place where you feel like you're a badass because all of your ideas are flowing and everything's on and popping, and it's all going." That's what I want to help people do
Andy Vitale:
Nice. No better way to end than on that. So, Denise, we can't thank you enough for your time. I would love for you to have the opportunity to just tell people how they can get ahold of you.
Denise Jacobs:
Absolutely. So, you can find me on my website, Denisejacobs.com. Follow me on Twitter, @DeniseJacobs, on Instagram, @DeniseJacobs. You can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm Denise R. Jacobs. No. Am I Denise R. Jacobs on LinkedIn? I am Denise Jacobs on LinkedIn. And then, on Facebook, you can follow my fan page or whatever they're calling them these days. It's Denisejacobs.com, all written out. Also, I encourage you to go and please go get and buy a copy and buy one for a friend of my book, Banish Your Inner Critic, which you can get on Amazon and you may actually be able to find in some Barnes and Nobles in the bargain book section. And also, please go and check out my-
Lisa Welchman:
It's a great book. I just read it.
Denise Jacobs:
It's a great book. Lisa just read it. And also, go and check out my courses on LinkedIn Learning. I have Banish Your Inner Critic to Unleash Creativity, Creative Collaboration, the Business Case for Creativity, and Creativity for All Hacking the Creative Brain. So, lots of cool things and wonderful things that you can go and follow up and can action.
Lisa Welchman:
She's prolific and wise. Thank you so much for joining us today. It was a really fun way to spend an hour chatting with you.
Denise Jacobs:
Thank you so much for having me.
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