Episode 30: Deep Dive - Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion
In this episode, hosts Lisa Welchman and Andy Vitale have a conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion. They speak about what the terms mean and how the dynamics of D, E, & I play out for them professionally and as colleagues.
Transcript
Announcer:
Welcome to Surfacing. In this episode, hosts Lisa Welchman and Andy Vitale have a conversation about diversity, equity, and inclusion. They speak about what the terms mean and how the dynamics of D.E.I play out for them professionally and as colleagues
Lisa Welchman:
D.E.I, which is diversity, equity, and inclusion. Not that everyone doesn't know that already, but I just wanted to say those words out, loud, diversity, equity, and inclusion, because I think a lot of times those things get smushed all together. I don't know, I've wanted to do a deep dive on this for a long time and I've always been wary of it. And to be honest, it's a scary terrain for me, not because I have any problems telling people about my experience as a Black woman in tech, but because it's just touchy and it seems like a dangerous space because you can never say anything all the way right.
Lisa Welchman:
But I think when we did that session with Margaret Lee and also just talking to some friends and colleagues, just the simplicity of telling your own story and talking about things is helpful. And I also think beyond my own personal experience, diversity, equity, and inclusion are just intellectually and emotionally and vocationally interesting concepts to talk about.
Andy Vitale:
Right. And we seem touch them a lot, this subject a lot in all of our episodes, but we've never really dedicated an episode to it completely, which it makes sense to do for sure, because it's a topic that's on a lot of people's minds. And for those who maybe it's not as front and center, it's something that they should hear so that they do take it as serious as they should.
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I always said, "Well, let's wait until we can get a super expert." But to be honest, it's really hard to get... The people who are really hot in this area are very hard to book, and we sort of have a small podcast. There was a colleague of mine who was just basically saying, "Why don't you and Andy talk about it? It's really interesting." You and I talk about diversity, equity, inclusion all the time when we're trying to schedule guests of just making sure that we're even handed. Anyhow, well, let's talk about it. So which one you want to talk about first, diversity, equity, or inclusion?
Andy Vitale:
It's funny, I remember seeing an illustration that shows the differences between them, but I think diversity is the one that people tend to think of front and center when they think D.E.I. To them I think it means, "How do we look around at who's working with us, who's at the table and see who's missing and really focus on bridging that gap?" And to me, when I think of diversity, I think of lots of different types of diversity, coming from being a white man.
Lisa Welchman:
Are you, Andy?
Andy Vitale:
I am.
Lisa Welchman:
Oh. We've only met once in-person. I forgot.
Andy Vitale:
Just shocking though, right? In a lot of spaces or places that I've worked where geographically or just in the space in technology, it was very white dominated. It's interesting because the term diversity of thought comes up a lot. And to me, that's important, but it almost feels like an excuse when you can't have true diversity in background, people tend to lean on diversity in perspective.
Lisa Welchman:
They abstract it a little bit or something.
Andy Vitale:
Exactly. I can understand that, but it's not true diversity. To me, diversity is really about like bringing in everyone from different ethnicities, different backgrounds, different physical capabilities or abilities, and also diversity in thought. So it's really about how we can have this full alignment, how are we creating things... And I'm probably going to just tee us off, how are we creating things in a digital space for everyone when not everyone is represented in the build?
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah. I think when I think about D.E.I, of those three words, the one that I hold onto most tightly is the I, because I think that the I delivers E and D. I think if you are inclusive, then you will have that diversity of thought, you will have that diversity of experience. And I think that. I'm biased in this way because the kind of work that I do is grossly speaking about, do we have the right people in the room to make decisions, good decisions, solid decisions? And so I think that's key to when you think about inclusiveness, when we are building this app, when we're creating this experience, when we're starting and informing the culture of this new company or this old company, who's in the room? And is this inclusive in a way that is really meaningful?
Lisa Welchman:
And that inclusivity is informed by a lot of interesting things. For the online world, I believe in deep inclusivity. I think if you're going to be building an online experience, it really should work for every human being, that should be the aim. But I imagine in some other situations, it's okay to be more narrow. There's certain types of activities and things that people do that are targeted to a certain group of people of individuals or tastes, and sometimes that might even include ethnicity.
Lisa Welchman:
And so I think what happens a lot is that the people who are creating our online experiences, if we're talking a lot about the digital space, which I think is appropriate for this podcast, they don't think about that. They're just going like, "Hey, work for us." Right. And they're not looking around and going, "Yeah, but the us in this room is one kind of us or three kinds of uses or five kinds of uses." Again, I'm going to bring up Kimberlé Crenshaw's notions of intersectionality of just taking the time and not being reluctant to pause for a moment and consider who you're building for in building whether that's an application, experience, or again, a corporate culture.
Lisa Welchman:
And I think that corporate culture piece can roll a lot into this as well. Oftentimes, the tenor and tone of the executive suite informs and flavors the entire company, even if the company is creating products and services for people that don't look like that executive suite. Anyhow, that's me rambling a little bit on that. What do you think? Is that true what I said, inclusivity delivers diversity and equity? It may not be entirely true.
Andy Vitale:
No, I think that's correct. In places that I've worked, you really can't have true equity or true diversity if there isn't true inclusion. And when I think of inclusion, it's the act of bringing the other things to life. You can talk about how you're including people, you can talk about how you're including people to create products, how you're including people to test products, but until you're actually in the act of doing that, that's when you're bringing in those different perspectives, those diverse perspectives, those diverse participants.
Andy Vitale:
That's the act of ensuring that what you're creating is really creating that solution that is truly inclusive of all. It's sad in the space that we're in. I think we're starting to see lots of true change. And we've got so far to go.
Lisa Welchman:
You said that to me several times, you keep seeing true change. Now, this is probably because you're actually working in a place that is building things, and I'm standing on the outside looking in, but why are you so hopeful? I'm hopeful, but you are aggressively a hopeful going like, "I'm actually seeing change." Can you talk about that a little bit more and cheer me up?
Andy Vitale:
So I'm hopeful for a lot of reasons, because for so long, for so many years, this topic has been something that people have spoken about, but it's always that every time you have a conversation that feels like you're going in the right direction, a company like Facebook or Meta creates something and it's like, "What is that?" Or you look at hearing about algorithmic bias and you're like, "Wait, we just had this conversation. Why is this still happening? Why is this coming to light?"
Andy Vitale:
In digital products, you and I have had this conversation just in our typical chats that we have every week. It started with your mentioning to me of the illustration that you saw that was the first like Black baby in a womb in a medical documentation. And then like a week later, I remember I sent you a message, I watched the Super Bowl commercial and the Google Pixel had this advertisement for people who have dark skin tones.
Lisa Welchman:
And you've heard me complain about that a million times too about-
Andy Vitale:
Right. So I think we're really starting to see products and things that are coming out that are truly inclusive, where in the past, we just talked about it. And maybe that for years is good because that generation that's building these products now, if you put people that this doesn't affect in the room and have them build that product, it's not going to happen, you're not going to get that change. And now that we're seeing the result of this, I think it's just the start of us continuing to improve the way we build products and the way we treat people.
Lisa Welchman:
I don't disagree with you, but I have a different perspective, and I think that perspective is borne out of the fact that I'm older than you, not crazy older than you, but enough older than you that if we talked about what we did in high school, they would be two different worlds. That's always my test, like, what did you do in high school? What are the bands you were listening to? And that's not a power move, that's just true. I was born before you, and I'm a Black woman. And so when you say, "Oh, we're seeing these products and services, one of the things that was really interesting to me that I've seen on LinkedIn or Facebook or whatever... I'm not on Facebook, on whatever, one of the social medias that I'm lurking around because I'm horrible at social media, was a young black woman or young to me, black woman, who's made these black dolls.
Lisa Welchman:
And she was super excited because now they're in Target or whatever, and that's really great, Black dolls. But I also have a picture of myself probably when I was in second, third grade, holding Tamu in 1970, which was this very dark skin African doll with a '70s, Afro, and that was back in 1970. We also had dark skin tone bandages. I can't remember, they were called like something pride or something like... So I was born and raised in the midst of the black power movement of the late '60s and '70s. And so all of this stuff that looks new now of like, oh, this awareness, this sensibility around natural hair, or for black people being able to wear braids, being able to wear dreads, I went through that already.
Lisa Welchman:
That already started, it somehow got stifled through the years. And so for me, I think there's a little bit more on we and a little bit more of just cynicism around, "Well, is it really going to happen?" Because it was happening before, and then causes and conditions changed such that it wasn't important, these things weren't important anymore or they weren't considered profitable anymore, which is why, not that particular reason, but the fact that the foundation has to be right and that the fundamentals have to be you right and inclusive in order for that difference to really penetrate and make a difference, which is why I do work like governance work.
Lisa Welchman:
No, it's not as fun as like quickly spinning up an app and people going, "Oh, doesn't that look great? That was so really clever. But it's the idea that we're going to make the bones right, we're going to make the foundation right, we're going to get the DNA right so that these things can't happen, and so that people can be creative on top of a foundation that makes a lot of sense and that is fair. And I'm not entirely sure that I see those foundations being put in place. I see good will and I see good intention, which is good, but that's not part of this governing infrastructure.
Lisa Welchman:
The other thing I want to say on this point as well is, a lot of times when people are talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion, they say it from a perspective of, "Oh, these poor, oppressed," fill in the blank with some group of marginalized people. "What can we do to bring them up to our level?" So we've already got a they/us, we've already got a they/us in there, which is already separating and I know which pile I'm in and you know what pile you're in. "These poor people, can we just bring them along?" And there's this lack of understanding that someone who looks like me might know something that someone who looks like you doesn't know that might make your life better.
Lisa Welchman:
It's not just a matter of people bending down to pick up oppressed, marginalized people, which it can be. It's not only that, it's the value that having another perspective brings and can bring to society. It's the tragedy of having cut off the perspective of indigenous people, the perspectives of people of color, the protect perspective of women, the perspective of non-binary folks, just cutting that perspective out of the solution forming process with this very, very paternalistic sense of, "We've already got it figured out in the way the world is supposed to be, we've got that all figured out. Now, we're going to allow you to be in this with us."
Lisa Welchman:
As opposed to real inclusivity, which is like, "We're building this together and that it requires all of us in order to create this better, safer, diverse, and inclusive, and equitable world." And so for me, that's really problematic because I was born middle class, upper middle class really, family. I've never been poor or hungry. And I feel that I add a lot of value. And a lot of times come at me with a, "Here, Lisa, here's a handout for you." And I'm like, "I don't need your handout, man, but I have something to tell you." And sometimes they're even taken aback of like, "Well, what do you have to tell me? I'm going to give you a leg up." And it's like, "I don't need your fricking leg up."
Lisa Welchman:
So I think that's also part of inclusiveness as well, which is not objectifying the marginalized in a way that assumes that what they need is for you to give them something, which might be the case, so I'm not pushing that aside, but sometimes all they need is for you to just get out of the way and let them do what they already know how to do and, or to listen, or to be passive, instead of being the one saying, "We're going to problem solve." Anyhow, so that was a lot of talking for me. I don't know what your reaction is to that.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah. So many things have gone through my head because although obviously I've never had those experiences, for me, this is something that is odd to me in the fact that I grew up in an area in Brooklyn that for me, diversity was always there in the schools that I went to, in the neighborhoods that I lived in. So it's always been odd to me when I've gone to work at a place that was 80% or 90% white, or when I went to move to an area that's like, "Oh, there's a section over here where all the Asian restaurants are, and there's a section over there where all the Hispanic people live, and that's where you'll find different restaurants."
Andy Vitale:
And to me, when I grew up, it was, it was all one neighborhood. It was all there on the same block, five different restaurants of different foods in the same area. So getting into tech, when I got into design in the late '90s, early 2000s, I remember the first place I worked was a cruise line. Now, I'm thinking about the diversity of the team, and I will tell you that it was entirely white, I remember that. Our department of eight that sat in this little room together, I was the only straight white guy on that team. There were like one or two other guys, and the rest were all women.
Andy Vitale:
And then on my next job, it was very much the same way. We had one Black guy, James, he was the only Black guy on our team, and then we had me. So we had two straight guys, and the rest were all women. So it was interesting to see how it shifted. And that was graphic design. So now we get into tech, and through my career, I'm seeing exactly what you're describing, but again, it was based geographically on where some of these places were. When I worked in south Florida, it was a different demographic than when I worked in Minnesota. Then when I moved to Atlanta, it's very different. Now that my team is scattered all over the place, we're primarily based Midwest, but in Detroit. So there's a strange balance there.
Andy Vitale:
What I want to figure out, we're not going to solve this in a conversation, but every time we talk, I'm always thinking like, "How can I impact the change that I want to see? Not for the reason of making change, but because I know that the outcomes will always be better for everyone involved." Now that our team is somewhat remote, what are the opportunities? And even then, as we start to recruit from like HBCUs, we're starting to understand that not all of these schools have design programs, but that's not an excuse for us. So can we look to, is there a psychology or anthropology that we can tie to research? Is there industrial design or some sort of systematic design or programming or something that we can tie to UX design?
Andy Vitale:
I think historically, people have taken the easy way out, for right or wrong. Obviously, the outcome ended up being wrong, but I think people just, they become comfortable in what they know and who they are and what's around them, and they don't think about how they can make things better and how they can... As a leader, for me, my job is to actually get out of the way for my team and to amplify those voices on the team that aren't as heard or coming from different backgrounds and making sure that they feel, not only represented or safe, but comfortable.
Andy Vitale:
And I can't always provide that. So sometimes whether if I have a woman on my team or a woman of color on my team and they're looking for mentorship, I try to find them someone that's not like me, that is more like them so that they can understand that journey and what it's like either in that company or in that level or through their experiences that I can't provide them. So for me, it's really about understanding like, yes, I can still provide some value to them, but maybe they don't resonate with my experience as much, so how do I help them find someone that they can maybe relate to a little bit more?
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah. You're saying a lot of things and one of the first things you said about growing up in Brooklyn, and anyone who's read my book, who has heard me talk, knows that I grew up in Columbia, Maryland, which was a planned, integrated community, integrated in the late '60s in the US, which was really unusual, with governing principles that did not allow real estate people to tell folks the race of other people who'd bought houses in the neighborhood. It was hardcore. So I grew up in a very integrated environment. And so maybe that's something we have in common.
Lisa Welchman:
But hearing myself say that and hearing you say that also, and thinking about what you're saying about the UX community, and I think we may have talked about this some on the podcast with Meena Kothandaraman, and I'm not sure, you UXers in particular are designers and people who work in environments, where they are in research, have an advantage that I don't think they always use well in the organization, which is if you started to build before you did research, the UX people would be all over you, but I think when sometimes that same skill and understanding doesn't get applied to the work environment.
Lisa Welchman:
So these are people who know that other people have a different experience. So there were all kinds of different looking people and ethnicities and cultural differences in your neighborhood in Brooklyn, but if I were to talk to a Black guy, his experience of growing up in Brooklyn was way different than yours even if you were living on the same street and went to the same school. And you know that, but people don't seem to understand that at work. And you were tapping into that little bit, can I get them a mentor? And I think I recently went to, this may seem off the point, but I recently went to, I go to meditation retreats all the time as everyone knows, and I was integrating the retreat and they wanted us to come have buddies.
Lisa Welchman:
And I didn't really skillfully talk about what I needed, I just didn't want a buddy at all. And I was like, but what I really didn't want was coming out of the US deeply charged by all this racial nonsense that's partially pushed me to leave my country. I just didn't want a buddy right now and I didn't want to white European buddy. So one of the teachers came up to me and said, "We are going to have mentors for people, this is an 18-month program. I know this teacher in Denmark that's a Black teacher, would you like me to get them?" And I was like, "No, I don't need a Black mentor, I just don't want to a white buddy." But I have to, "Hey, well, no." But the thing is they ask.
Lisa Welchman:
And so that's what researchers know how to do, you go and you ask people. So it could be that somebody wants a Black mentor because they're a Black woman and maybe they want a Black mentor, or maybe it's really more important for them to get somebody who knows a lot about this particular research technique or has done a particular career path. But the point is, you don't know if you don't ask them. And I see that a lot either out of, and now I'm projecting on white people because I'm not white and I don't know what it means to be white in this context so maybe you can tell me, and you're only one white person, but maybe you can tell me if I'm off.
Lisa Welchman:
There's often this fear or guilt of doing the right or wrong thing, just this paralyzing fear or guilt that sometimes people just try to do what they conceive to be the most generous thing. And I'm not dinging at you like, but you know what I mean, because they're almost scared to even go to the person and have that conversation that this meditation teacher Which she's right, she is exact same meditation tradition that I'm interested in. She had read my application and she knew it. And she said, "So I was going to take you on, but if you're not comfortable, this other person." I was like, "No, I want you." And that was easy. That was an easy conversation. I don't think those types of conversations happen a lot.
Lisa Welchman:
I can see from all kinds of HR reasons why there isn't an environment in a workplace to have those types of conversations and why a manager of any shade, ethnicity, gender would have trouble speaking about these things out loud. And so I think you talk about what do we do? I think one of the things that we do is try to create an environment, a safe environment, where we are allowed to talk about these things in a way that makes space for mistakes. And when I say mistakes, I don't mean people getting damaged. So I think because we don't talk about the mistakes get made in play where it actually hurts a person's job, or somebody ends up quitting because the environment's so bad.
Lisa Welchman:
There's all this misunderstanding that happens real time, and I think taking the time and space to actually have a space to have these sorts of dialogues about what's happening inside of a company culture and why things are not inclusive. I don't see that a lot. I see a lot of external consultants coming in, but I don't see a lot of authenticity happening in conversation. Now, I don't work in these companies, so I could be off the mark. You probably interact more, some of the different collaboration groups that you're on around different organizations, you're always talking to different design leaders and things like that, maybe that's off.
Lisa Welchman:
I'm often talking to chief marketing officers, chief digital officers, and heads designs about governance related things, and this topic actually doesn't come up. It comes up most often when we're talking about accessibility, I usually have my whole, like, "Now when we're talking about accessibility, we're not just talking about blind people." So that kind of stuff. This is where Lisa's algorithmic bias speech comes on. And honestly, it often just falls on bamboozled ears. They're looking at me, "What are you even talking about?" And I'm like, "I'm talking about inclusiveness." So I don't know, I just said a lot. What do you think?
Andy Vitale:
No, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think in a lot of places, people just aren't used to having conversations that are somewhat uncomfortable for themselves. Whenever people talk about being comfortable, having uncomfortable conversations, it's always like, they're the ones that are in the position that they're not uncomfortable, it's more uncomfortable for the person they're talking to. And in other situations, people are uncomfortable to have conversations where they're the ones, it's hard to start the conversation if it's about a topic that you feel uncomfortable with.
Andy Vitale:
But again, I think that, and again, I can only speak for one place or one point of view at this moment, but I work at a place where we have a chief diversity officer and we're really, really focused on team member engagement and team health, and having those conversations where we do surveys, are people, do you feel that you can be your whole self at work? I'm paraphrasing, these aren't actual things that we ask, all those, it's in that vein. Do you feel that the environment that you're in is accepting of you? Is there a sense of psychological safety essentially? And I think just having those types of surveys and the ways that people can communicate these things anonymously or what really starts to bubble up and surface the issues and then having the right people in place, the right teams in your company's HR department that can start to dig into these things and really start to identify.
Andy Vitale:
It really takes being intentional about this and understanding how important it is to... I'm fortunate to work for a company that's on all the lists, best places to work, best place for diversity. So we're intentional about those things in creating an environment that is inclusive. But I've worked in places that weren't, but I worked in them in a place of privilege, so I wasn't affected by it. So this conversation in general, for me, I'm not an expert in this area. It's something that I constantly try to understand and try to work towards and try to leverage my role to be able to create a space that is inclusive.
Andy Vitale:
For us, one of the things, and I know when this airs, because I'm talking about something that hasn't yet happened yet, but it's happening by the time this airs. For me, how I can help and contribute and leverage my voice in the design community to improve diversity in design is something that's always been front and center for me in my role today. There's an organization called Diversity in Design that started maybe a year ago with Adobe and Herman Miller and companies like that that were really making this a focus. And then the second cohort came around and I'm like, "I would love for us to be part of this."
Andy Vitale:
And 3M and Johnson & Johnson, and the big global design companies have gotten in. And now they're starting to include some tech companies. So we were lucky enough that we were invited to join the next cohort of this. So by the time this airs, we will have been announced as being a member of the Diversity in Design Initiative. So it truly is lots of leaders at different companies and design and tech that understand there's a lot that needs to be done. And being in a position to be able to bring people from my team to the conversation that typically wouldn't be involved and be able to work with other companies and other large design organizations to really look at the problems that we have in our industry and figure out how as a collective group, as an industry, we can move it forward.
Andy Vitale:
I'm optimistic because of reasons like that that something like this exists and certain partners and companies are involved to really, how can we move the needle for design? Now, design is very different. It's not meaning tech companies, and it's not meaning any other industry, but it's a place to start and it's a thing that I can do to contribute to a better outcome. But again, I'm not an expert in this so I'm learning as I go. I look at this as an opportunity to gain different perspectives, to understand the space more, understand the problems that we have so that I can be part of and bring other people in to be part of the solution. And I know, we're probably not going to solve this in my lifetime. This country's a lot older than me, it's been around for-
Lisa Welchman:
Well, so these brands that you're talking about aren't just US brands, they're global brands. And my hope is that the foundations of this are inclusive. We are going nowhere if the Noah's ark of equity and inclusion doesn't have everybody on it. And when we get there, what's going to get off is only just more of whatever was on that boat. And so that's my reaction. Of course, that's great, but again, I think just from having seen a couple wipes at this in my lifetime, there's a certain amount of cynicism, at the same time, I will also have to say, a lot has changed. I remember when I used to give talk at conferences and really there were no other Black people there and certainly no other Black women keynoting and talking about technology.
Lisa Welchman:
And now that's just super common to have those sorts of things happening. So those sorts of shifts do happen, but it's one thing to shift that visually and it's another thing to shift it deeply as I was saying before in a way that the people who on that stage get to own it in the same way that other people do. It's not that someone gave this to them and gave them this opportunity, it's not that they're lifting them up. It's more like they got out of the way so that a natural, wonderful, light of a human being actually got to shine. It's not like pulling forward, it's stepping back and not taking up so much room that other people can't do stuff.
Lisa Welchman:
Everyone says this all the time, but there's probably cures for so many different things in so many minds that get squashed or knowledge that existed in indigenous culture that got completely gotten knocked out that now Western pharma is going back and discovering all of these things, it's just smacks of that same discovering phenomena that started in US and a bunch of other things. And it's not to be negative about that, but for us to learn and understand, and to take care and be careful about what it is we do with people and what it is we do with the gifts that we've been given.
Andy Vitale:
Every time we continue this conversation, it becomes even more like, wow, even the part of stepping back so someone can naturally just shine, it's so frustrating that we're still in a place of that. And again, it's even more frustrating that these things aren't as evident to people. So having conversations like this are so important. And again, as I listen to us talk, the one thing that keeps resonating with me is this isn't my area of expertise.
Lisa Welchman:
Well, that's what I would say. That's why I was like, "It's not mine either." And so I was shying away from this because I was like, "Wow, I don't want this to just be a conversation about Lisa griping about being a Black woman in tech and blah. The story we've heard, not to belittle my own experience, buy me a beverage or a bottle of beverage, and I'm happy to sit down and have a conversation with everyone, but it's really not the first thing that I present about myself professionally, or I think the best way for me to go about the best skills that I have in solving this problem are actually that I know a lot about governance. It's not that I'm a Black woman in tech.
Lisa Welchman:
Yes, that really informs, I know some places where there are some problems because I've seen them and I've experienced, but what it really is, is understanding how important it is to get the foundations of something correct, because if you don't, it'll just spawn crazy and grow crazy. And that's what we've seen online and we're seeing that in inclusiveness space as well. But no, I'm not a DEI expert, maybe we should have one on, right?
Andy Vitale:
We definitely, yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
We should have one on, but I think it was good to have this conversation. I've not wanted to have it just because I think I was afraid it was going to just spawn into like a Lisa complain-a-thon, and that's not like I said, I'm not belittling my own experience at all, it's just more like, I just don't need to talk about that on this podcast. I think I bring things up in context where it makes sense when we're talking to guests and things like that if something comes up, but just as a general line of our conversation, it's not something I like to talk about a lot.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah. And every time I've said something, I'm like, "Wow, what am I defending? I shouldn't say anything."
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah. We're always quiet when these topics come up and Andy's like, "It's hard to know what to do." It's really hard to know what to do for different reasons for me and different reasons for you.
Andy Vitale:
And for me, I don't want to sound like I'm an expert or have any of these experiences, so it's easier for me to just listen and learn from it than it is to say something. So even as we're talking today, I'm like, "Wow, I literally could have said probably nothing." But at the same time, I want to continue conversations to learn and maybe inspire other people to have conversations very similar to this.
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah. Well, we're not going to solve the pro... I think listening is important and you're a better listener than I am, anyone who listens to the podcast. I think that's what's so fun about it, I'm always the one like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, "Oh yeah, I better let Andy talk," which is fun. I think it's funny to me that that's the dynamic when oftentimes people would think it would be the reverse, but it's tough. We work together and we have these differences, and most of the time, I think almost all the time, it's not really an issue or anything like that. And so it's challenging to bring something into this space, but we did it. We did it. So I think we can stop now, right?
Andy Vitale:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
I'm going to turn this off. So maybe we'll come back to it again with a guest.
Andy Vitale:
For sure.
Lisa Welchman:
And we'll see what happens.
Announcer:
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