Episode 44: Deep Dive: Digital Deca Part 5: 10 Management Truths for the Web Age

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Transcript

Lisa Welchman:

So, Andy, we are finally at the end of the Digital Deca.

Andy Vitale:

That's right. Deep dive digital Deca, last one.

Lisa Welchman:

Whatever number that is, who knows what it is.

So truth nine is know your customer, but own your mission, and truth 10 is measure twice and execute once. So why don't we jump into truth nine first?

Andy Vitale:

Yep.

Lisa Welchman:

I want you to start on this one, Andy, because my customers are my clients, but you actually are B2C.

Andy Vitale:

Yes.

Lisa Welchman:

In the work that you do. So I want to sit back and hear what you have to say. What I said back in the day is, organizations must understand the subjective needs of their digital and physical world customers and make mission driven determinations about which needs will be met and which will not. So that's what I said back in 2010. Does that make any sense?

Andy Vitale:

It does. I think it's still an area that companies often struggle with, so it's really interesting to me. So I'm at a B2C and a B2B2C and a B2B. So there's a lot of different perspectives that we have. But thinking about understanding your customer, knowing your customer, is one thing, right? It's really important, we know this, we know how understanding the needs, the behaviors of the people who are going to use our products, our experiences is really important for the company to be successful by solving that problem and them giving us business. But where that ties into to the mission is something that's very different. And I think talking about missions is really important too. So we can talk about the overall company's mission and what that may be through the lens of the company. I think since 2010, when you wrote this, I think we've started to see a lot more client-centric missions, a lot more like missions that have positive social impact, sustainability, environmental work. Your typical ESG.

I think what we're looking at is, how do we blend who we are as a company versus what we want or are able to provide to our customers? And where that is difficult for companies is, they often chase profit, so they want to provide every single thing that they can to clients so that they can maximize the financial impact that they get. But I think companies also start to realize that they're good at certain things, so they want to provide value to those clients and be there where it makes sense for that company along the lines with their mission. So it's not about, I just want to do everything and be everything to everyone. Its, I'm okay, not doing certain things because that's not where I get the most impact for my brand, for my client, that may start to hurt my company. So that's why this is something that's really interesting to me.

Lisa Welchman:

I think you actually, now that we've gotten to the end of the digital deca, we might actually be in complete alignment. That was my intention when I was writing this, which is that, companies should be discriminating. That's not a word that you get to use often because it often has a negative connotation when we're talking about diversity, equity, inclusion, so I certainly don't mean it in that way. They need to be discriminating about what they do and don't do, and I see this still as the number one challenge, which is, oftentimes, in some organizations that are relatively new and came in during the advent of digital.coms, big and small, is, they're not really sure who they are. They don't really have an identity. And so, yes, there are these moments of innovation where you're just flailing about and figuring out what you're going to do.

But again, as we were talking about standards, standards before scale and strategy before scale. So if you don't have that, you're kind of just like a technology people pleaser, right? Somebody who has no sense of themselves but just wants to make everybody happy. And at the end of the day, I think most businesses have a clear business model and a clear focus and a clear understanding of what needs they want to meet for their customers. So I'd like to make a discrimination though, often between the business and the digital business, because I work in a lot of different vertical market spaces, and it's interesting to sometimes be working with teams who have a very clear mission, a strong mission and a mission that's so well articulated, that children on the street would know it, right? And a brand that's so strong, that people are singing jingles and theme songs or whatever, and many aspects of the business are mission centered and pointed.

But somehow, the digital team is on a different planet. And often, it's the same senior leaders who in very comprehensive and structured ways, drive a clear brand and drive a generally clear product development strategy. These are not digital products, but other real world product, hard goods sometimes. But when it comes to digital, it somehow doesn't lock in. It's almost like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. They're like Dr. Jekyll with the actual physical product, but the marketing of it online or maintaining the brand online, it's like the Hyde side. So I still see that a lot, and I'm wondering, not necessarily inside of your own business, but just in general because you interact with a lot of other design leaders, do you see similar types of things for people who aren't just dot com focused?

Andy Vitale:

I think that there are times when I do see it. An example that came to mind as you were talking was, Wendy's social media has seemingly gone rogue in a way that's funny, but poking fun at other companies. And it just feels like sometimes someone there went off the rails, and it doesn't match what you would expect when you go into a store or the experience that you have when you interact with people. But I think that that is also due to a few different things. I think we're in an environment now where people are competing for attention, especially in the social space. Brands can be forgotten as soon as someone else says something or does something, so how do I stay relevant in that way? But again, no matter what, that should still match who you are as a brand. It shouldn't go against who you are as a brand.

The other thing is, it's the maturity of some of these technologies and platforms that we see. So I would imagine that a company's web presence may... Places that I've worked recently have been somewhat digital first. So the web presence matches what you would expect from a physical experience that you have with that brand. Now there are times when it doesn't because the physical products are so much more mature in the process of getting them, that throwing an e-commerce site doesn't solve that problem. But I think what we're seeing is, we talked this season to Judy Ma, and there are some properties at 3M like Post-it notes that probably have a TikTok feed.

I'm sure that the way they show up in their TikTok feed isn't the same way they show up on their website or their displays in the store. So I think companies are trying to figure out how to leverage all of these different channels that they have available to them and figure out how to show up and be as authentic to those channels as they can, which might necessarily be in conflict with how authentic they are as a brand, as a whole.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah, I think that's true. And I was also just thinking, I think I've mentioned this piece I wrote a few years back, does it delight? Does it parse? Does it pay? And it was a criticism of every less nailed, but two or three years ago, it was all about delight, correct?

Andy Vitale:

Right.

Lisa Welchman:

Delighting your customer. And I think there was an element of this in this truth for me, of just really thinking about, which needs do you meet and what do you not? And being delighted isn't a need, it just isn't right. But I think there's less of that flavor now, and I'm asking you that question. I think we got burnt a little bit on that when we saw with all of the sort of meltdown around the elections in the US with social media and that sort of thing, I think that people came to a realization that stickiness for stickiness' sake isn't necessarily a good thing all the time.

And so I also think there's an element of safety in this as well, which is, customers don't always know what's safe and not safe, and it's either because they're being willfully blind or just blind. Most people don't understand how these technologies work under the hood, so I think part of owning the mission and part of being responsible citizen, assuming that most entities want to be responsible digital citizens, part of that is actually understanding and helping to moderate the experience for the customer and to protect them, right? You don't really want to do this online. I don't ever really hear a business say that. It's kind of like, oh, we could make money off of that. And I hear people saying it, I hear people in the ecosystem saying, not everything is good. Right now when we're recording this, it's all AI driven with the Chat GPT that came out over the Christmas holidays in what? 2022, and of that release for people being able to fill with it.

And so you hear people talking about that, but what I see is just people going at it fast and furious from a 72 different angles. Yes, we're in an innovation cycle, but not really. This technology isn't really new. It's consumer new, right? So that is, I think that it's sometimes difficult for consumers to make these judgements for themselves. And so I would put that in this truth. Part of owning your mission should be, being a responsible corporate citizen and making sure that you don't go overboard on these things. On the other hand, and now I will be done asking my long-winded question, companies have to make money. They're not in it to be nonprofits, they're for profit companies. So the question would be, how do you balance that out? How do you balance and figure out what a new product or a new technology can use, and make that determination about what you should and should not build for your customer?

Andy Vitale:

Yeah, that takes me back to the conversation that we had with Scott Rosenberg, where we were talking about trust and how we measure trust. And I think companies need to realize that their mission is representative of who they aspire to be, if not who they are in the moment. And the customers that they have, they have certain expectations for that company to show up for them. And that is how they build that trust when you show up in that way for those customers. So I think that, if you don't fully own that mission, if you're trying to leverage that trust to do things that you shouldn't do, clients will... Companies, customers. Sorry, customers will see through that. They will start to understand, Hey, you're know what? You're actually not in it for me, you're in it for my money.

And it's got to be an equal amount of value coming on both sides, if not more from the company providing that value to the customer. And that trust will start to erode. And once you start to erode that trust, it's going to cost even more money to try to get that customer back, if you ever can. So companies have to really think about how profitable they can be is going to be tied to the trust that they have and how they show up and what that mission is. And like you said, how they can protect that customer through the moments that they interact and they engage.

Lisa Welchman:

Well, I want to push on that a little bit because I think that's true for a lot of companies, but I don't think it's true for everyone. And I think some of the large social media companies prove that point. So bad behavior all around and people cling on. So I think there are maybe even some more subtle components, which is, is it a monopoly?

Andy Vitale:

Right.

Lisa Welchman:

Some of these social media things feel almost like a utility. They're not utilities. I'm a believer that these applications that run over the web are not the utility. The internet connectivity is the utility. People will argue with me all day on this one, but I feel like that's at this utility level pipes and data flow. But these apps are not that. But I think there are a lot of people who cling onto a variety of social media platforms because they're too invested, and even though there has been a lack of trust and trust has been broken.

So I think it's a little more complicated. I'm not saying that I know what all the complications are, but I think there are negative elements like, some people might be addicted, some people are having an equation in my head that says something like, staying in touch with my grandkids and seeing pictures with them versus not. And at the same time, be feeling like, I know that my dad is being used in a way that I don't like or don't fully understand, but nothing bad's happened to me now. And so again, it's funny, it's just circling back to the original reason you and I started talking together, which is safety, and maybe a conversation that we've never had, which is, whose job is it to make things safe? Actually, we have had this conversation. We decided it was everyone's job. Everybody plays a role.yeah.

Andy Vitale:

Right. No, it's funny because as you were saying, I thought addictive technology, and another discussion that we've had is, I don't know that these companies that are doing this harm, obviously they can open their eyes and read and see what people say, but I think their mission doesn't come from that place of being harmful. I think they look at, I'm providing this value, they can catch up with their grandkids, this is a platform that they can use to socialize, and yes, bad things may happen on it, but overall, the mission is to provide good and there is good happening, so they tend to overlook the bad because the good that's happening is... It's kind of like, oh yeah, it's when you are only seeing the things, the metrics that you want to see and hearing the things that you want to hear. So tell me all the positive and oh, yeah, we know some bad's going to happen with this, but the good's outweighing the bad by far. At least that's what I imagine them thinking and not-

Lisa Welchman:

I'm a little bit more cynical. I'll give you a little bit of that. I'll give you a teaspoon of what you just said, and I'll give five cups of, they've built an entire business model around it and X thousands of people's jobs rely on it. And they're a publicly trade company. And I'm not finger pointing, fill in your blank with the name of the company. And so, this is why I'm always saying that, really crucial elements like harm and safety should be considered before scaling.

Andy Vitale:

Yes.

Lisa Welchman:

Because whatever's in that seed is going to grow. So if there's harm in the seed, the harm will grow as well. And there's nothing that's harm free, so I'm not running around thinking that you can create these perfect worlds. And once things grow, they take on a life of their own and a really interesting position in the ecosystem.

So you have a company that's a dot com company that's growing, and it's not just the company that's growing, it's also people who work there whose mortgages are attached to their job at the place. And then there's the whole supply chain of vendors that are supporting this. There's a whole ecosystem and world that builds up around it that's going to protect it. So it hardens at some point. So the idea of just uninstalling it and letting it go almost seems impossible. It's like the business equivalent of what a grandparent feels when they're like, should I shut down my Facebook account? I'll never see my grandkid. There's so much tied to it. There's a business element of that, where it's almost inconceivable. And so, wrapping this up, I think there's a lot of assumptions in what I'm saying, and I think maybe you're agreeing with a little bit, that we are believing that companies... Well, maybe you not so much. Now I'm thinking about what you said.

I feel like ethically, part of a company's mission should be the safety of the users of their digital products and services, hands down, no matter who you are. From the most outrageous adult only stuff, to little kids. That full range, everybody deserves safety and that should just be a default. And so, that's an assumption that I'm making in almost all the comments around that, that part of the mission should be that, and that people should be discriminating about the features that they create and protect consumers from themselves by being more considered about what they build. I'm on that side of it. I think you sound more like you're in alignment of the real world of product development like features. What are we at? Well, no, I think it's a balance, right?

Andy Vitale:

Yeah, definitely.

Lisa Welchman:

And it reflects also our different ways of working and the different things that we do.

Andy Vitale:

I think that when you create a mission as a company or you evolve your mission, or if you look at company's missions, they often are very much around the value that they're providing to people. I think that once... We have been talking about once profitability comes into play and people start to see, hey, wait, this is working, I think sometimes they lose track of that mission or they fail to decide that, hey, I'm not really living this through. So I think my question, much like who's responsible for safety is, who, especially as you work to help companies govern themselves, who at what point becomes responsible for that mission and the up keeping and upholding of everything that we put out in the world is going through that lens of that mission.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah. And just a final thing on this that we talked about longer than I thought we would is, this reminds me of Alex Edmondson, Grow the Pie in the first season, which is, these things don't have to be mutually exclusive, but they do have to be measured, managed, counted, considered, governed. It's not magically going to happen. You have to actually take care of it and have an intention around knowing your customer and owning your mission at the same time.

Andy Vitale:

Exactly.

Lisa Welchman:

So, truth 10.

Andy Vitale:

Truth 10. Measure twice... Oh, go ahead.

Lisa Welchman:

Oh, no, no, go ahead. You do it.

Andy Vitale:

Okay. Truth 10, measure twice, execute once. This is one that I've seen, I've heard, I've lived to some extent. I'm really curious what you were thinking back then, the writeup back then, because I'm sure it's still, like most of these, they're still spot on today.

Lisa Welchman:

So this one was obviously a play on words from carpentry, right? Measure true ice, cut once, but it's an interesting twist. I'll read you what I said. "Organizations must use both quantitative and qualitative data to determine business success." So that's the measure twice. "And synthesize physical and digital business execution in order to maintain competitive advantage." And that's the one. So this is actually complicated. When I first saw it and didn't read what I wrote, it almost sounded like a treatise against agile. Be careful about what you do, which makes sense. But this was more like, there are two different ways to express your mission, and there's two different ways to create success metrics. One of them's quantitative and the other one is qualitative.

And I think this actually ties into what we were talking about before, which is, if you're just looking at the quantitative side, you're just looking at the sales figures, you're just looking at hits and clicks, you're just looking at all this data that's flowing in and you're growing and growing and growing, but you're not actually qualitatively looking at all this soft data that's also coming in, understanding the experience, understanding the emotional impact of your brand. If you're not doing both of these things, it's going to be really, really difficult. So that's one side of it. And then synthesizing the physical and digital business execution. That's a maturity issue.

Andy Vitale:

Right.

Lisa Welchman:

So instead of going like, oh, okay, we know what we want to do, now let's go do the version of it. Oh, now let's digitize it. Which is oddly, I think we're still seeing that. People are still doing things in a business and then dragging the digital team in at the tail end. Now, I'm obviously not talking about apps or digital first types of things, but just functionally, particularly in hard, old, legacy organizations like higher education or NGOs, governmental entities, municipalities, federal, state, local, regional, all those types of governance. People are still doing these processes the way they did 30 or 40 years ago, and then they're doing things twice instead of creating a synthesized, unified execution. So I think this was early Lisa talking a little bit about a unified digital transformation.

Andy Vitale:

Nice, yeah. And I know we-

Lisa Welchman:

That's me trying to make myself sound smarter than maybe I was, because I wasn't thinking those words. But I think that was my intention.

Andy Vitale:

Exactly. No, and we talked about that through a lot of the different truths about digital transformation and how we need to focus on all of the digital properties and channels that people will interact with. But it's interesting, as we think about quantitative and qualitative data, we often hear that quantitative is telling us something's happening. Qualitative is telling us the why. I really believe we can start to dig in as we slice data in many different ways now and synthesize it faster than we ever have before. There's always a bit of a conflict, though. There are times when you see, qualitatively, something seems a little off. People are saying, I'm having a tough time doing something, completing a task. Yet quantitatively, it's like, wait a minute, the numbers are down, conversion is up. So what's wrong? What is this? And oftentimes, those early, what feels opposite feedback or data that you're getting is because you made a change.

And people are somewhat hesitant or reluctant to change, and then they eventually figure out where something is. Or sometimes, sadly, they just deal with it because they don't have a choice. So I think having the right plan in place as you're building something, not only to measure it, whether it's quantitatively or qualitatively, hopefully both, and then knowing what success looks like in those areas so that you can start to validate those decisions, feel good about them, and then create that plan to truly scale them across channels equally. Not looking at, I'm going to do this way first and then move it over here and see how that works.

Lisa Welchman:

So I think this one's rich. I'm looking at this and the first one of the digital deca was, I can't remember what it's backing up. The first of the digital deca truths was your web presence. Oh, I see what I was doing, your web presence is the digital manifestation of your organization. So that one was really rich, and it seems really, really self-evident. And that one was kind of like, you are what you are online. Holistically, there's no difference between those two things, and I think that's just become more true over time.

But this last one is actually, measure twice, execute once, is sort of an expression of how you honor that truth. You need to be very, very holistic about this and use both the quantitative and qualitative to consider what you're doing, and I'm going to go even farther than you did, synthesize physical and digital business execution. Now, I think what I really meant, and what I would say today is, just synthesize business execution. So if you're working in a dot com, everything's going online. But this is a harking back to something that I talked about in this book, which is, and has come up again a little bit, come up and down, which is clicks and bricks,

Andy Vitale:

Right.

Lisa Welchman:

So just this sense of, there's this interplay and this dynamic that happens between stuff in the physical world, stuff that's happening online, stuff that's happening in my head, AI, my refrigerator that's telling me my milk is spoiled. There's all of this stuff. This is user experience. This is holistic user experience around these digital channels. And I don't think anybody... Well, I shouldn't say that. That's overstating. Very few organizations I think have reached this level of success. And the ones that do are the ones that people love to hate like in Amazon, because they started in this space. So they started on selling books online and then they extended into the real world. Now they have stores, and now they have... So they've kind of backed their way into it. And cherry-picked which aspects of it. There's huge supply chain management components of it. That business model is complex and huge and immense, and I think really interesting to think about, not so much from a do you Jeff Bezos and Amazon or not, but more just from, what it is, the monolith.

Andy Vitale:

I think this is where companies really can do a good job of tightening up the overall experience. So Ron Bronson, season one talked about service design, and we know that that's looking holistically at every touchpoint. And not just data and how information's captured, but how we're providing experiences and how they could be seamless. I work for a place now that, you have a digital experience, but a lot of times that digital experience is then met with talking to somebody on the phone, or if someone's not available or you come to the site, there's a chat experience, a chat-bot, so leveraging some AI, then there's an actual closing date where there's third parties involved. And what we have to do is measure the experience at each one of those interactions to see is it on par with what we expect? Is there a point in the process, whether it's an interaction physically or digitally, that's causing customers to lose doubt or have a less than stellar experience.

So looking at that and understanding how we're going to measure this, how it makes sense, how we show up, and how it tells, not just digital or physical experience, but the single experience that a customer will have for our company is something that, if a company's not doing that, they really have to figure that out. Because if they're looking at just channel separately, they may say, hey, this digital channel is performing really well, but this physical channel's kind of underperforming. And then not knowing how to tie those threads together to come to the overall picture of where the fallout happens for the company or where the poor engagement happens is going to be really crucial for them to be successful today.

Lisa Welchman:

This is bringing into mind a really interesting use case. I don't know why, because you are, but I am not a Taylor Swift fan, but I'm thinking about, you're talking about an... Well, you're not even, because you have partners, I'm sure, in this process. You said they're third parties, and I'm thinking about the fiasco with a Ticketmaster, Live Nation Ticketmaster Master fiasco, where basically it broke. Because I was trying to think of it in the good example of someone who does really good end to end, and I thought, "Oh, concert experience," oops.

Andy Vitale:

Drag race.

Lisa Welchman:

You don't want to go. I was trying to think of a good experience, that someone who does complicated, good, end-to-end experience. And so I was thinking about concerts because you go, you buy the ticket and you get it on your phone, and then you have to show up and get there and then... But I guess that's not really a particularly complex one, but even in that simple one, it's not logistically simple on the tour side. So if my son Reese is listening, I understand it takes a lot to put on a big concert. So as far as that concerned, that's usually relatively tight at a high end, somebody like Taylor Swift. But it's really interesting that all that effort can be put in, and I'm thinking about, I'm asking you, do you think something similar happens inside of an organization, where people spend a lot of time developing a product or a service and then it gets blown on a single facet that just didn't work, or is broken?

And I know you implied this already or said this already, that you have to look at all the various touch points, but how common is it that you think that that happens? That it's not actually the product or service itself, but it's something either wonky in the sales funnel or... I'm not really making my point clearly. It's something that is out of you... How about this? Something that is not in the best interest of the partner to do particularly well? So in other words, I don't know a whole lot about Live Nation, but it's kind of a monopoly. So it's one of those things where if you mess up, what are you going to do? Right?

Andy Vitale:

Right.

Lisa Welchman:

It's kind of like social security. You're going to go to the other social security? You just have to keep pounding on that door. If you want tickets to go to see Beyonce, guess who? So those sorts of things. So I'm wondering if you can think of some real world, real corollaries that might happen where some kind of third wheel thing flies in from the side and just blows it.

Andy Vitale:

I feel like, as you were describing the Live Nation, and I'm still having a tough time figuring out how I'm going to see Taylor Swift on this tour based on that fiasco. But I fly all-

Lisa Welchman:

Did you try?

Andy Vitale:

I tried unsuccessfully. I even signed up for the pre get access and I never even got an email. But you and I both travel a decent amount. So I'm flying, I think, I booked my Flight with Delta. But then Delta has an app that sometimes shows my TSA pre-check, sometimes doesn't. I show up at an airport. How I get there, sometimes it's ride-share, sometimes it's driving myself to the airport, parking at the airport, dealing with whatever construction at the airport, then dealing with different gate agents, getting on a plane that may or may not be clean. These are all areas that are outside of Delta's control, but it's part of the Delta experience or the airline experience, not to just use Delta. I just happen to fly with them a lot. And then, do they show up on time? What is that interaction?

And there's so many things that are outside of their control, yet their team is always somewhat of... I say always then somewhat. Their team takes on or any team is responsible. So whether it's the passenger that sits next to you that is not great like, the flight attendant is there to be there to remedy that situation. So I think companies do, as they go more omnichannel, think about these experiences and think about how they can at least show up to be empathetic in those situations, even if they're not responsible, and then accept some sort of responsibility, even for the things that are outside of their control.

Lisa Welchman:

Yeah. So you're saying omnichannel, omni experience. I think it is really interesting how both the first and the last truth, I think really point to just this holistic sense of knowing who you are as an organization and understanding the data and what it means. And I'm also thinking that these are ideals that we are trying to achieve, and just like any experience in the real world, shit happens. Sometimes it's not going to land the way it's going to land, but I think you really nailed it when you mentioned that it's also about the response of the organization when they are failing, right? How much attitude are you... We're talking about airlines. The Southwest experience in the US over the holidays was just a nightmare.

I had a similar thing over the summer in the Netherlands. It was Schiphol airport, which is usually a great airport. It's part of the reason I moved here, I wanted to be near a great airport. It was three hours outside in the hot sun, wrapping around, trying to get through airport security. Which had nothing to do with the airlines, the airlines are mad at the security. So it was a similar type of thing. But I have to admit, they had people with carts handing out water and stroopwaffles. It wasn't great, but it was something. Every now and then, somebody came up and gave you something sweet and a cold drink and it was free. And so, those sorts of things show that kind of empathy. But anyhow, so this has really been an interesting array through the digital deca. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. Any last thoughts on them?

Andy Vitale:

It's so interesting how there's not a single one that we said, oh, we've solved that problem now. Even if we've made strides in certain places, like we just talked about the omnichannel experience, I think, or digital transformation. I think that it's still in the early days like we are with the web in general, with digital technologies in general. So I'm excited to see where this goes. I wouldn't bet that if we revisited this in 10 years, we'd have them all solved, but I would hope, and I'm optimistic that maybe there'd be more nuances that we could say, oh yeah, but now we have to look at it through this new experience, this augmented reality or whatever it is, lens, that we don't even know is coming in the next 10 years. I think they will still have to think about each one of these and see how companies show up to be successful.

Lisa Welchman:

Well, that's why they were truth for the web age, right? So we'll still be in that. I think there's going to be a lot of maturity. I think the next 15 years is going to be really telling. I'm really looking forward to this generation of new UX people, new management, new leadership, people who grew up with these digital technologies natively and have a slightly different perspective on them, I think are going to do some really, really interesting things. And I think the global aspect of the web is also going to come into play as well, where so much of this first wave came out of Silicon Valley and some hotspots in Europe. And I think that we see that shift already a little bit with TikTok. And so, however people feel about TikTok, we just see this shift of where this dominance and prominence is coming out.

So I think that's going to be interesting as well. And since the web is a digital manifestation of whatever it's representing, that is the world. So it's going to be really fascinating to see, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next.

Andy Vitale:

Me too.