Episode 28: Aaron Irizarry on Healthy Teams & Authenticity at Work
In this episode, hosts Lisa Welchman and Andy Vitale, speak to design leader, Aaron Irizarry. Aaron speaks about music, his journey into the world of design, and the steps he takes to create team environments that create space for the whole person.
Andy asked Aaron about building and implementing design systems, and Lisa asked Aaron to talk about how he ensures that being authentic at work is available for every worker. Finally, Aaron gives us tips on how to make the best vegan tacos.
Transcript
Announcer:
Welcome to Surfacing. In this episode, hosts Lisa Welchman and Andy Vitale, speak to design leader, Aaron Irizarry. Aaron speaks about music, his journey into the world of design, and the steps he takes to create team environments that create space for the whole person. Andy asked Aaron about building and implementing design systems, and Lisa asked Aaron to talk about how he ensures that being authentic at work is available for every worker. Finally, Aaron gives us tips on how to make the best vegan tacos.
Lisa Welchman:
Tell us about yourself, Aaron. Tell us where you're coming from before we ask you some questions.
Aaron Irizarry:
Sure. Yeah. Coming to you from New Jersey by way of Southern California. Moved out to the East Coast probably about, gosh, this summer will be seven years. So about six-and-a-half years ago, when I was working at NASDAQ, they wanted me to move to the East Coast. And so, I'm a vulnerable human, so I willingly tell people that I moved from the San Diego area to New Jersey.
Lisa Welchman:
What?
Aaron Irizarry:
And waiting to-
Lisa Welchman:
San Diego's the nice smelling airport. You get off the plane and it smells like night blooming jasmine. What's wrong with you, man?
Aaron Irizarry:
I like adventure. Yeah, so just designer, I guess, by trade, but majority of my job is kind of managing personalities, as I lead a design team at Capital One and work with partners to try to build tools for Capital One's employees. So I do a lot of internal tool work, design systems, artificial intelligence, machine learning, things like that. And our whole purpose is to ensure first and foremost that... When you work at Capital One, they call you an associate, so I don't know an employee just doesn't... I don't know, employee, associate, not very endearing terms. Anyone who works at Capital One, our goal is to make sure that the experience they have using the platforms within Capital One is of equal quality to the customer experience.
Aaron Irizarry:
A lot of that being because my team builds platforms that some teams use to build for customers. So design system's a great easy example of that, the design system of record, that team reports into me.
Aaron Irizarry:
So I spend a lot of my time in the leadership space and just working and trying to grow my team and create a culture where they feel like they could be set up to do their best work and then try to forge strong partner relationships.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, that's the work stuff. And then, the rest of the time I'm just hanging out with my two daughters and my wife and my five cats at home, just kind of vibing out a bit.
Andy Vitale:
Nice. I definitely want to talk all of those things, the platforms, the AI, the design systems. But what I really just, even going back a little bit further, so as I've gotten to spend time with you over the years in random places and enjoyed every minute of that, I've learned so many things about you. And I want to go back even before the design by trade, so you had another career, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah.
Andy Vitale:
You were involved in music, you were doing things.
Aaron Irizarry:
So I'm not a traditional designer. With most things in my life, I just kind of fall my way into them accidentally, and I'm very fortunate for most of those turning out really, really well.
Aaron Irizarry:
Early on in my life, I was not a good person. I was really terrible. I got in a lot of trouble. And it was a rough go of things. And as I got older, I came to a point where stuff went down bad enough that I had to separate myself from a way of living. And so, what happened for me is I found an outlet in music.
Aaron Irizarry:
And at that time, being fully transparent, at that time, it was also that and my parents trying to look out for me and I found religion. And so, I was trying to separate myself from this former life. But I found it, and all that to say, it kind of culminated in this idea of making music.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, for me, growing up listening to metal and punk and all these various types of music, I wanted to do just fast, heavy music that was really fun. And so I started this thrash band with with my friends called Point of Recognition. And it was religious-inspired. A lot of the lyrics were about hope and finding faith and all this stuff. That's not necessarily my path now, but at the time it was really helpful for me to kind of put to bed one way of living and find a new one.
Aaron Irizarry:
And then through the music, I cannot be more grateful for that time, even if I don't hold those same beliefs now, because what it did is I got to go on tour. So I got to come out of small Southern California suburban life and go see other places. I got to go to other states. I had never been out of California other than to Tijuana prior to touring in this band.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, as a result, I met people all over. I learned about cultures. I went to different states. I met all kinds of different people, saw different worldviews. And it was massive for me because it sort of opened my eyes to the fact that maybe I needed to be a lot more open-minded about what's out in the world.
Aaron Irizarry:
And then, at the same time, this is in the late '90s and early 2000s, designer, bands needed T-shirts and stickers and websites. And so I just started, the label was like, "Here. Here's Photoshop 4 and Macromedia DreamWeaver. Dude, go to town." And so I just started kind of trying to make stuff, and I really enjoyed it.
Aaron Irizarry:
And then, I'll never forget, one of the other bands we're on tour with was like, "Dude, you made that website and those shirts?" I'm like, "Yeah." They're like, "Would you make a website for us?" I'm like, "Sure. Yeah, I got to charge you for it." And they're like, "Well, how much?" And I was like, "$300," and I'll never forget because it was so long ago.
Lisa Welchman:
But you thought a big thing because you got it, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
I got to the show, used the phone at the venue to call my wife at home, who's at home while I'm on tour, and I'm like, "Yo, I just landed a $300 website gig." She's like, "Oh my gosh, that's awesome." And, of course, it was fun, and it was a fun time to just really get inspired by music.
Aaron Irizarry:
And that was my gateway drug to what I do now. That's how I fell in love with design. And once I realized it was... That was the time I found out I could make money doing it. So as soon as I got home from tour, I just started trying to hone my skills and learn how to be a designer.
Aaron Irizarry:
And I tried going to some programs at different schools. They weren't that great. But back then, it was a lot of multimedia. It's just like, "Oh, so you want me to do all this 3D modeling."
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, how to use DreamWeaver. How to use... Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Irizarry:
It's like, "I don't want to learn 3D modeling. I just want to make websites," but that's the class. So eventually just kind of did it all on my own and kind of was very fortunate that I had people who would give me a shot and looked out for me over the years and just kept going and going and going and kind of landed where I am now.
Andy Vitale:
The thing that I think about when... If I have to describe you to anyone, it's always authentic. Aaron is one of the most authentic people, a really good... I was going to say human, but a really good person.
Andy Vitale:
I've seen you at conferences and talk about leading teams and the importance of teams and how to get teams really gel together. And it's really related to a lot of the things we talk about on this podcast. So Lisa with governance and really structuring and building teams and helping them perform.
Andy Vitale:
So just curious, some of the things, maybe they're your own principles when it comes to leading teams or leading people that you'd love to share.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. Thank you for that, by the way, that was very kind. I appreciate that. I try to be as authentic as I can. I am who I am, and sometimes it's rad and sometimes it's not. And I just try to be out there as myself because I feel like two things.
Aaron Irizarry:
One, I feel like it's really exhausting to try to hold up an image and be something that I think everybody else wants me to be or to try to play a politic. I just don't have the patience for that. Maybe that's a blessing and a curse.
Aaron Irizarry:
But the other side of this, I read something, actually I think it was this morning, that was like, "Every time you are working so hard to get someone to like you, you're doing an unkind thing to them because you're trying to manipulate them to have a certain perception of who you are instead of being real." And I was like, "Oh, damn, that hurt. Geez, that's like, how many times have I done that?"
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, that's kind of how I try to lead is I want... Personally, you're right, Andy, it is kind of like my own principle for myself. There's just a way I want to be. And it kind of just comes down to this principle of just like leave things better than I found them and just be kind, do things with kindness. Because, I don't know, that's what feels right to me. I feel like everything opposite that just doesn't feel good. I don't feel good inside when it's that way.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, when I bring that to leadership, I want my people that I'm leading my teams to feel like they have someone who literally sees them. Doesn't just see them as like, "Oh, you're the designer on the design system team." No, you're Dan Singer, my content lead for the design system at Capital One. And I see you and I care about you as a human being because we're on this journey together.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, when I think of about leading that person, that means that I need to be taking the time to understand that individual so that I can see the things that make them tick, that make them who they are, so that I can better understand them and how to lead them.
Aaron Irizarry:
It's just like the same, when I talk to my leaders, my directors that report to me about this, I kind of frame it to them like, "Hey, let's just use our design tools that we have to be great leaders. So use your abilities and your prowess for research and learn about your people, and then learn how to better lead them through the insights that you gain about them."
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, for me, a lot of it comes down to that kind of thing. There's a lot of super talented people. Design's design. There's always going to be rad designers, but I think if you can bring a really cool connection together of really someone who has talent, whatever level that talent may be, but really understands interpersonal dynamics and can just show up as a really thoughtful, engaged, caring, human being in the workplace, then it starts to become this little unstoppable combo because people want to work with them. People want to partner with them.
Aaron Irizarry:
And I was telling someone this yesterday, no matter how much great work we do, if our cross-functional partnerships aren't intact, it's going to be so hard to get that stuff over the line, and it's going to probably not end up the way we want it. But if we have the right partnerships, then that's one of the toughest steps that's kind of already taken care of, and we can have good conversations, tough conversations. Either way, the work is going to make it to where we want it to go, or we'll all be successful.
Lisa Welchman:
To just dwell a little bit on what you said and, yes, authenticity. But the first thing, if I'm honest, that popped into my head was, "Well, some of us haven't been allowed to be authentically ourselves."
Aaron Irizarry:
Very true.
Lisa Welchman:
Whether or not it's a gender issue or what you look like or the way your hair is. And I know people get tired of hearing this, but it's the God's truth, I mean, if I think about my own career trajectory, not just in technology, but in general, as a woman, when I first started working in New York City, it was in a lot of banks back in the late '80s, early '90s. And women couldn't wear pants, and you had to wear panty hose, so there were just little things like that.
Lisa Welchman:
And then, not really could I have shown up with dreadlocks in 1986 in a job or expected that. I didn't start wearing dreadlocks until after I left corporate America because in the mid-'90s, even then, that wasn't okay.
Lisa Welchman:
And so, I guess that's my sort of... Can you take a run at that answer to Andy's question again, particularly on how you address that as a leader, including that richness? Because some of us really get to show up no matter what we do because people are going to let us in the door no matter what, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Absolutely.
Lisa Welchman:
And some of us really have trouble getting in the door, literally because we're physically not able to, and there's no capacity, or people have bias or a variety of other things. And it's been so in the news and much in our industry space and showing up in the products that we build, just our lack of sensitivity. And I include myself, it's not like I think I'm a 360 degree saint in this. I have my issues. Everybody has, no one is, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisa Welchman:
Everyone has bias in some way or another. But I'm just wondering, in the last few years, you're in the US, particularly in the US market, and with the pressures of the pandemic, what shifts have you seen? And are there things that you're doing differently as a leader to kind of dig in and double down on your promise to be able to meet and greet the whole person at work?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you so much for that question. That's great. When I think of that, there's instant dynamic. I'm fortunate to work at a company that really, really works hard to establish a culture that is rooted in belonging, inclusivity, diversity.
Aaron Irizarry:
That being said, it's not perfect by any means. I like to think about this a lot too with intersectionality. While I'm pale as the driven snow, my dad's a political refugee from Cuba, so I'm Cuban. I'm a multiple time felon as a kid. That's part of my intersectionality I never share with hardly anybody because that usually closes almost every door possible, including like, "Hey, let's just be friends." Nobody wants to hang out with the creepy tattooed dude. It's like, "Not this."
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, when I think about that, I think every one of those things, though, except for my heritage, were things that I brought to myself, and I had control over what that part of my intersectionality was for me. But there's so many that don't, they don't have that control.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, something I try to do is as I lead my teams is to be mindful. I look for opportunity. I look for who we can elevate. I try to keep track of looking at our teams, looking at our structure, what we're doing, everything from promotions to opportunities for new bodies of work or a side project or side of desk work that comes up.
Aaron Irizarry:
I'm really trying to look at the team and seeing who's not getting opportunities? What's there? How are we engaging our team members in a way that lets them know that we not only see them, but we see and understand them? Maybe they're not always getting the opportunities that they should as a result of not having access, and for the many of the reasons you shared.
Aaron Irizarry:
And on the other end of that, I'm also trying to be mindful not to be forcefully a nag about that either because some folks maybe don't want that opportunity. They want an opportunity, but they don't constantly want to be seen for that thing because there's more to them.
Lisa Welchman:
That's right.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, it's this kind of, it's a balance. And I am fortunate that I am part of a leadership team that holds each other really, really accountable for this, even when it comes to our recruiting and hiring, when it comes to... Because right now is probably a time when, more than not with the hiring market the way it is, it can be really easy to kind of slip on this one because there's so many roles out there and you're just trying to get anybody in the door. Hey, look, we just got who we could.
Lisa Welchman:
Just trying to get the bodies in the door. It's like whoever shows up first is qualified. They're in. Yeah.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. And that's not okay at all. And so, we try to have a lot of conversations about it. I ask for accountability for myself because I know without a doubt that I have
blind spots. I probably will for a long time. I'm going to be on a continuous learning journey in this space.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so I ask for accountability from my manager, from my partners, especially from my peers, those in any of the groups, whether it's gender preference, ethnicity, anything, please keep me accountable. I invite you to tell me, "Hey dude, you totally missed that one. Let's talk about that."
Aaron Irizarry:
And I consider myself very fortunate that I have people in my life that will do that, and just be like, "Hey, you really missed one. One, don't do that again. Two, let's talk about why."
Lisa Welchman:
Well, I mean, I think you're calling out two things. One, I'm glad that you said Kimberle Crenshaw's intersectionality because it's all about that. We all have that. I have incredible privilege in some ways. Just like there's so many, demographically, there are so many ways that I'm privileged. And then there are other ways where I just kind of am not. And so, I think that's true of just about everyone. So I'm glad that you brought that up, and I think it's something that everyone needs to examine and really consider who they are in that space.
Lisa Welchman:
And I also, when you pointed to some people just maybe aren't ready to be brought into the spotlight, even if you're trying to fill that void with someone like them or that sort of thing. And that's something that Andy and I talk a lot about in the podcast.
Lisa Welchman:
I think even before, correct me if I'm wrong, Andy, we started recording, one of the things that I know I articulated, and I think you agreed with, was that, yeah, we want to have a good cross section of human beings on this podcast, and we don't want them to talk about their cross section. We want them to talk about what they do, right?
Andy Vitale:
Right.
Lisa Welchman:
Because so many times in the last three years, people have shown up and asked me, "Could you come give a talk on diversity, equity, and inclusion, Lisa?" And it's like, "Well, no. I'm a digital governance expert. I can tell you about my experience in tech, but I don't follow that as a discipline," or whatever. And they're just kind of grabbing at the air for any black person. "I need a black woman who... Oh, look, she talks. She's given some talks. Here, come fill my little hole," which means they're really not looking at me as a human being, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
Because, obviously, if you did, you would be like, "Why would she give a talk like that?" Right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah, right.
Lisa Welchman:
Or, "Why would I want her to give a talk like that?" So I appreciate your openness on that. I think it's a process, and I think we never arrive. And I think what we need to do is learn a new skill of awareness about what we're saying, where we are, and who we're interacting with and to understand that, not only in our disciplines, but also in our relationships with people, we need to be lifelong learners.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah. And having those people that can provide that real feedback in the moment when we do miss, because it's so important.
Andy Vitale:
The one thing that you talked about, and I really want to dive into some of the platform stuff that you talked about earlier, but you mentioned the market today. And I think that it's one of the things we haven't talked about, but it is really front and center in a lot of people's minds, this is literally the craziest talent market I've ever seen.
Andy Vitale:
There are people that are accepting roles, and then deciding the day before they're supposed to start that they took another job somewhere else for double the pay with five times signing bonus over three years with all these different perks and things. And huge companies are throwing tons of money at people.
Andy Vitale:
What are you doing to, A, kind of like retain people? What are some of the things as a leader that are important to you to build that space so that people aren't like, "Hey, I'm going to go work somewhere else for three times the money"? And what are you doing to attract that talent and bring them in?
Aaron Irizarry:
Man, I don't even understand what's going on right now with this hiring market. We've lost people on our team recently within the last month that someone came and offered them a 35% pay increase.
Aaron Irizarry:
It's like I can do everything in the world, and being honest, if they believe that the culture's good where they're going and they don't take that money, I'm probably actually going to be irritated with them. Because you're never going to get this, once this is done, I don't know, it's going to be a minute before we get this again.
Aaron Irizarry:
What I try to do with my team, look, there's stuff Capital One as a whole is trying. There's a lot of conversations happening behind doors about how do we maintain a competitive thing. Because it's not just in design, it's happening in the engineering side and the product side as well.
Aaron Irizarry:
I focus on the design side of it, but we've seen a lot of movement in other job families as well. And so what is it? Is it the ability for someone to work fully remote if they choose? Is it making sure that we're in line with the pay bands? Is it offering competitive salary regardless of location, if someone's fully remote? These are all things that the organization is trying to consider.
Aaron Irizarry:
And I'm not in those meetings. Those are things happening in a few pay grades above me. But, personally, what I'm trying to do is just to let my team know that they're supported. And if they come to me and say, "Hey, I'm interviewing for a new role, and I want to figure out, okay... " There's nothing I can do you to control whatever cuckoo banana pancakes stuff they throw at you to get you to leave.
Aaron Irizarry:
Now, what I can control is what here is not okay that you'd be willing to think about leaving, and where can I dig into that, and what can I improve there? And even that being said, though, best culture in the world, doesn't matter. Sometimes people just throw stupid money at things. And if you're in your career... And money's money, right?
Lisa Welchman:
That's right.
Aaron Irizarry:
You need it to survive. And with the world upside down in the US, every six months, it either other goes up for a little while or down for a little while, getting money to try to make sure you have a stable future is going to be the top of mind of anybody.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, when a company says, "Here, we'll give you a 35% pay increase. Here's just a ton of stock. We're going public in the new year. Here's a signing bonus and a puppy," you can't say anything to that. You just say like, "Hey, go."
Lisa Welchman:
I hope it works out.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. And if you want, come back because I love you. I love working with you, and if it doesn't work, I'd still have you on this team. So if it doesn't work out, come back. Go see if it works. That's how you learn. I've tried that, I've left for more money on three occasions, and it only worked out once, and I'm still in the one that worked out
Andy Vitale:
Nice. Similar thing for us. We've really scaled this year, and now my fear is that we're going to see a drop off over time because we're seeing people get poached sometimes for two and three times the salary. Which is crazy in certain areas because these companies that have a ton of money, well, total comp, not base, but when it comes to stocks and things.
Andy Vitale:
So we've been really trying to build this community, this culture of learning and what I like to call a destination workplace, where people want to be there and they come and they grow. But that can only do so much. And I look at the people as they're part of our portfolio. They just go on and they do great things, and hopefully they refer people back to the system.
Andy Vitale:
But it's true. It's like sometimes it hurts the person more to really fight to keep them, especially when it's a good opportunity for them. So as leaders, it's important to look out for the individuals as much as the company. But again, this is just the craziest market of all time. I've never seen anything like it. I've also left for money at different times, and they haven't worked out most of those times. Money's important, but at the end of the day, feeling good about what you're doing is just as important.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah, yeah. I actually helped someone prepare for their interview. "I'm not trying to get you out of here, but I just want you to be successful." But, yeah, money doesn't do much when you go somewhere, and the work takes the life out of you a bit. No money's going to fix that, you know?
Andy Vitale:
Right.
Aaron Irizarry:
It's exhausting, and you never know. You never know. Same with a job interview, is the person really good? I don't know. They're putting on their best for you because it's an interview. Everything comes with a small amount of risk. And so, it's about how much risk you're willing to accept in your choices.
Andy Vitale:
So at Capital One, which you've been now for almost five years, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah.
Andy Vitale:
I feel like since I've talked to you since you've been in that role, you've been constantly working on different things, new things, design systems, design operations, credit cards, all of the different things. Now, servicing platforms, and servicing is always interesting to me working in a mortgage space.
Andy Vitale:
But just curious, we'll just start, we've never really had anyone talk about design systems period so far on this show. Would love to dive into that a little bit and kind of where you see the value of that. What makes it truly a system? What it is, for people that may not know, and how it really helps propel an organization?
Aaron Irizarry:
When I think of design systems, I think of them as a tool. They're a foundational tool that we can use to build. When I think of them, and I think of the components that are put together and the elements and the things that make up a design system, it's a baseline set of design decisions that are meant to take some of the minutia of getting design work up and running out of the way, enabling designers to focus on some of the more challenging problems.
Aaron Irizarry:
Maybe because they know they have a design system, they'll put some workflows together pretty quickly to spend more time in research, or maybe they can spend more time thinking through a problem and quickly iterating on things because they have a design system at hand.
Aaron Irizarry:
I think it reduces risk. Every new line of code that's written in an organization produces risk. And maybe that's just because I work at a bank, and if you do anything at a bank, you're pretty much in risk management. You're just trying to make sure that you're not causing risk that can impact the finances of the people that bank with you as well as your organization.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, every new line of code you introduce is potential risk. And so, that's where design systems should be built with code because it gives opportunities to keep a consistent code base built across everything that's being done.
Aaron Irizarry:
I like to think efficiency is often related to design systems, but I prefer autonomy. I can work more autonomously when I have a design system because it gives me all the tools I need to build the things I need to build. It's a really, it's a healthy constraint. It's getting me so much percentage of the way there, and then I put my fingerprints all over the rest.
Aaron Irizarry:
I also think of it when I think across organizations. Think about Capital One has consumer card, consumer bank, business-to-business banking, small business banking, auto loans. Like at Rocket, I'm sure you've got your various lines of business as well. It's like, how do we maintain... I don't think consistency is necessarily the goal there, but it's that continuity. How do we keep people feeling like they're a part of this existing similar experience, even if their context is different? So the design system helps with a lot of those things.
Aaron Irizarry:
I think it also is a great way to, if you have a design system team that needs to partner with all the other teams, it's a very interesting way to build relationships cross functionally and across lines of business and with essential team that can interact with and support and work with these teams. It brings a level of partnership there that's usually not there when there's not a design system.
Lisa Welchman:
What interests me about design systems is that they have to be created. And from a governing perspective, what I'm often helping people figure out is who in the organization gets to make rules? So that's usually the more challenging than enforcement of those rules.
Lisa Welchman:
The more challenging process is having everybody agree that this group of people gets to do visual design rules, or this group of people is responsible for the editorial framework, or IT does this almost natively, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisa Welchman:
But even there, there's some debates. But because of the nature of their culture, they tend to make these decisions a lot more easily, or understand that decision-makers need to be identified.
Lisa Welchman:
So when you are establishing a design system, how do you do that, and how do you determine who is providing input into that and who has the final sort of check? Because I know you can say we have a consensus-based decision, but that's not real. I'm sorry. That's not really real.
Aaron Irizarry:
No.
Lisa Welchman:
So I'm always talking with people about input versus decision making. Which is, yes, you need to talk to a lot of people to make sure what you're building is not siloed and crazy or just coming straight out of Aaron's forehead, birthed out like a Greek god coming out of your forehead, but is actually informed by other things. But what's that exercise like in your head of who you need to include in that process?
Lisa Welchman:
Because I think a lot of people really struggle in that particular area. They either build it all themselves, and then give it to people and say, "Here, follow it," and then everybody's pissed because they didn't get any input. Or they go the too far the other way and say, "Let's just all get together and feel good our way to it," and that doesn't work either.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. Governance is... I love that you asked that question because that's one of the areas I think people don't talk as much about when it comes to design systems, is the governance aspect. As a design system team, do you want to be in the governance game because that comes with a lot of overhead. That comes with a lot of reviewing people's work to make sure that it's in line with the system and what's being had there.
Aaron Irizarry:
The way I think about it is let's try to drive community and bring governance about that way. And we have rules. We have rules about using the system. We also have... We try to partner with other... So like we have an experienced quality team. So they have a checklist that they've instituted to ensure quality experiences across Capital One, and using the design system as a part of that checklist.
Aaron Irizarry:
But if you're using the design system and kind of straying off the path a bit, it gets flagged, and they say, "Okay, talk to us about that." And so, what we try to do is identify, especially because we have to work with so many different lines of business, identify a representative or two in each of those design teams.
Aaron Irizarry:
And we have kind of like a coalition, and we say, "Hey, we're going to introduce a new component. We're going to actually, before we introduce it, we're going to give it to you, go throw it in Figma, kick the tires on that for a little bit. Come back to us, tell us if it meets your needs." And then, we hear from the different teams because what business-to-business may need may be different from what consumer card needs could be different from small business needs.
Lisa Welchman:
Right, exactly.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, we take all that in, and then we think, "Okay, now that we have a lot of information, what is the baseline foundational component that meets the majority of the needs?" And then, each of them can contextualize on top of it. And so, we have those meetings on a weekly basis, and we're constantly engaging in the community.
Aaron Irizarry:
And then once it gets to there... And there are times where people are just like, "We want a side navigation." We're like, "Right, but the design system has a top horizontal navigation." They're like, "Yes, and we want the side one." I'm like, "Well, we don't come with a side one. We don't have one." Excuse me.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, we naturally have a discussion around that. And the way I try to frame with them is, "Look, cool, we'll meet," I'll come leading up to that meeting, "Be ready to walk us through where what the design system offers you is limiting your experience. How does it limit the experience for the customer, for the internal user, whomever it may be? Walk us through that."
Aaron Irizarry:
If we still at that point think, "Yeah, you're right. Actually, what we have doesn't meet your need. Awesome, go build it. But then we'll ask you, would you please contribute it back to the system?" Because chances are someone else may come across or also have that need and not know that you've made this yet.
Aaron Irizarry:
If it isn't limiting the experience, and this is just, "Hey, I think these kinds of navs are cool or whatever, then we say, "Okay, our recommendation is that you do not use that pattern, that you use the patterns and components that we provide. If you're still going to choose to do that on your own and go your own way, that's fine. Just be prepared when you come to a quality review or have to talk to your VP of design who is held accountable for their team adhering to the global design system, you just need to have a reason for them because they're actually the one who manages you, not me."
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, that's the kind of approach I've taken in that. Early on, getting a design system up is really challenging because it's like there's nothing. So in those cases, what I've done is if teams are already building and there's not a design system yet... Because that's usually how it goes is you realize you need a design system-
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, because you've built a bunch of different, crazy stuff. Yeah.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. So it's like let's go look at what everybody has. Let's go do an inventory of, okay, here's all the date pickers. Here's all the form fields. Here's all the tables with different sorting mechanisms. And then, we look at those and try from those to start to build a base level set of components.
Aaron Irizarry:
And then, from there, try to, depending on how big the team is... Because design system teams never start very big, it's usually a person or two... Kind of crowdsource from them, "Hey, who's working... We need to start thinking about a global footer. Who's done one of those in their work yet? Cool, let's bring that along." And we kind of it's try to drive a lot of community engagement.
Aaron Irizarry:
There's a book I read that was really interesting. I'm trying to look at my bookshelf, but I realize that my eyes are going to fail me. I can't see over there. It's a really interesting book about community on Stripe Press, and it's something that I encourage all design system teams to read. I'll make sure I find and I'll-
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, we can stick it in our show notes. I mean, I love what you're saying. And just to be clear, what you've just described to me is an active governing framework where you and whoever it is or else around you who that you've designated are actually the decision makers, is what you're... And just to be clear on my side, there's review, which I don't consider to be governance.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
Reviewing someone's work for quality or to make sure they adhered to standards is part of the operational implementation of governance framework. But I'm talking about establishing those mechanisms that you were just talking about. And it's great to hear you talk about if you have nothing, start with community. Because that's often a recommendation I make, which is the value and strength of communities of practice.
Lisa Welchman:
If you're really confused and everything's in a disarray, just get everybody in the same room and start... It's like a bad closet. You open it up. You got to clean it out. And it's like, okay, all the gloves over here, all the hats over here, all the boxes of weird sports that I almost did over here. And you sort it out, and then you see what you're going to keep and what you're not going to keep, and that's a really good way to start. So I'm glad that you're validating that.
Lisa Welchman:
But, anyway, Andy, you let me me ask this followup question, and I think, and now I've taken up more time, but I think you said you had a line of questions.
Andy Vitale:
I mean, now that we just talked about this design systems team and the experience quality team, I'm curious, the people that are on that team, is that their full-time job on that team, or are they in different places? And then, I see you shaking in your head yes.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yes.
Andy Vitale:
So my followup to that is just what disciplines are represented there? What's the size of the team? And then, you talked about weekly meetings., So what is that review process? Who facilitates these meetings? Just curious how that whole monitoring and measuring of quality works.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. So, I mean, I will go in as detail as I can without worrying that corporate coms will get on me about this. But I don't think there's anything I'm going to share that's... It's design. It's all design. It's nothing like there's some secret sauce.
Aaron Irizarry:
So, yeah, our design system team, everybody who's on the design system team, we have, I think right around nine people and growing. It's their full-time gig. And we have a specific person there who on our team that's focus is helping to drive adoption. And so, she runs these coalitions that meet weekly to talk about things.
Aaron Irizarry:
And sometimes it's teams coming and saying, "Hey, we need this component. Do you have it?" Other times, it's us saying, "We're introducing a new component. What do you think?" Or, "Hey, we've just met with brand, there's some revisions to the color palette. Please check them out." We bring our accessibility partner in frequently to just help and to answer questions. So that's just a regular community forum for that.
Aaron Irizarry:
The quality and experience and the reviews, that's still something new. So certain teams are doing it. We're still rolling it out across different teams because we have to introduce this, not just to them, but to their partners, "All right, engineering, guess what, new step in the process, a little QA, and you may not like the results," so we have to think about that.
Aaron Irizarry:
So in our design team, that's direct focus on the design system. I have a director that leads that team, but we have like content strategy is in there. We have a creative and visual experience layer. We have mobile. We have some generalist disciplines. We have pretty much across the board generalist design disciplines. But we have people who focus primarily on the documentation side. We have people who focus on working with some of the platforms to create local versions of the system.
Aaron Irizarry:
Because when you have a design system that has to work for 600 designers, you have to create a global layer or at least my suggestion is nobody has to do anything. My suggestion is you create that global layer, and then if you have various teams, especially different LOBs, like I said, we have B2B, consumer credit, consumer bank, they can have local versions because they're going to have to do a little bit of building on top of that global foundation to ensure that it meets their needs and their context.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, but what's great is they're using things like tokens and the certain tools that we have and the tools we have in the system, we constantly can push them updates, and it will automatically update their things. And even in the token packages, we can make them selective. So if there's a certain aspect of a component they're not using because it doesn't make sense in their context, they can select certain aspects of the package, and then not take the thing that doesn't make sense for them.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, that's where a lot of our team... We have someone who focuses primarily on tooling, like, "Hey... " Right now, it's Figma, all Figma all the time. How do we manage plugins? We work at a bank, so there's risk stuff there. Data implications, how do we look at that and make sure that we're abiding by those rules and regulations as we use some of our tooling.
Aaron Irizarry:
And then on the experience quality team, that's great. One of my favorite people leads that team, one of our VPs, Milissa Tarquini. And she's totally just got a great eye for design, a really, really experienced design leader. And she has people working underneath in her team that are helping with the creation of a checklist, rolling it out, partnering with teams, doing learning sessions around it.
Aaron Irizarry:
And then, what they started doing on top of that, which I think is super cool, which I think it's really going to grow is like, "Hey, you know what? How many of you designers in our design team actually know how to design for native mobile? I don't think you know a lot of people really focused just on that."
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, they've been doing workshops where you come once a week and just learn design for native mobile. And so they're like, "Okay, what's the next thing that we can do to help ensure quality by leveling up our teams understanding of designing a certain way?" And so, they do lots of stuff like that.
Aaron Irizarry:
And that's one of the areas where I think Capital... We've been fortunate that our leadership team at design at Capital One has been advocates for creating space for these types of teams. Because that's a hard sell, if you ask me. We want a team that's not going to deliver anything that generates revenue, at least in the hard cost the way you would think about it. They're not going to build anything necessarily that's going to make the people working in the company's lives more efficient in a soft cost way. They're just going to make sure everything's good experience quality. And we need to pay them for it, and it's a full-time gig and they don't build anything else.
Aaron Irizarry:
That's like, companies are like, "Well, wait, so what's my return on this?" And so, when we tell them, "Well, you're getting best in class, accessible experiences. Yeah, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to create $2.5 million next year, but what it's going to do is ensure that, one, we're not getting busted in our accessibility. We're having consistent, good experiences that are going to market.
Aaron Irizarry:
And good experiences, yeah, eventually there's going to be some level of lift for our teams because it's a smoother process. We're going to ensure all of our experiences are the same quality, and those things matter to customers, and they matter to people who work here." And so-
Lisa Welchman:
Well, they also matter from a... Andy and I started all this from a safety perspective.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yes, yes.
Lisa Welchman:
I mean, that's a long view, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisa Welchman:
And so, part of the challenge is that organizations don't take a long view. And I'm not naive. Businesses are in business for business, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
For money. I mean, I know it's not an entirely nonprofit world, and it probably never will be, but I think that's starting to become an easier and easier sell as we see people stumble in this space, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Lisa Welchman:
Because the fact that people do not do this, which is why they don't see things that aren't obvious only from the clickable, browsable experience.
Aaron Irizarry:
Correct.
Lisa Welchman:
There's just a lot of things you don't see in a functional tool, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Right.
Lisa Welchman:
There's a lot of exhaust that comes out of the tailpipe. There's an aura around it. There's all these non-tangible almost mystical sounding things that go around products where they smell bad. Things like that, it's still making money, but boy does it stink, that kind of thing. And so, I think what you're pointing to is a culture that understands that, or at least you sold the culture, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah, yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
Into saying, "Hey, we need to think about this bigger, broader picture and keep ourselves out of the stinky areas instead of reacting once we're in them already," which is a mature way. And it's not surprising to hear it come out of an organization that's in the banking financial sector because that's a mature market space, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
They've been around the block, seen a lot of things. And I'm not saying that happens all the time, but I think that can make a difference sometimes.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. And it's not just like, "Hey, use a checkbox instead of a radio button." There's also guidance in there like, "This is a dark pattern, don't do this. We don't do this for this reason because we want to be good people." There's direction there because, especially when it comes to people's finances... I was talking to someone yesterday, and they had worked at another financial institution, and they always joked that Capital One was the bank of the nice guys, right?
Lisa Welchman:
One of the worst things to be, man.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah, right. And it was because they chose not to do deceitful patterns in their designs. And they chose to try to actually say like, "You know what? We get it. Why would you trust a financial institution? But maybe we could be that one." And so, those are some of the things that I think also align when we talk about advocating for this type of roles and this type of work is we can tie it back to values as well, not just to money-making in the end, you know?
Andy Vitale:
So for everyone that's listening, and we'll talk about our broad range of listeners, but just the person that's trying to think like, "Oh, shit, that's a great idea. How do I stand that up?" Where does a team like that start out? Does it start out in operations? Does it start out separately?
Aaron Irizarry:
It can.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah, in your opinion, where's the best place to start something like that to gain traction?
Aaron Irizarry:
I think, I mean, first and foremost, it's like just start and start thinking about what that looks like and what it is. And if you have the opportunity to start doing it maybe side of desk or as a part of your role, start thinking about what it needs to be. And as it starts to formalize, and as you start to get buy-in for it, then start thinking about where it's going to sit.
Aaron Irizarry:
For us, and just because of the way we're structured, it just sits as a horizontal within the enterprise team. So that's just where... And it fits really great where it sits, but I could easily see it sitting in a design ops team. I could see it sitting as a part of a design system team. I could see it, if you have other, if you have a group of horizontals that could be like top of house teams that are research, design ops, you could have a quality team there. Like I said, it could be a part of ops.
Aaron Irizarry:
But I think it needs to be positioned in a way that it is removed from teams, though, because if one line of business design team is the one driving experience quality, that's just going to be riddled full of bias, whether they want to or not. So it needs to be objective, it needs to be outside of... As much as possible. Not every structure's going to allow for that. So that if a structure doesn't allow for that, then there just needs to be clear understanding that it needs to be objective and that it needs to be considering the needs of all teams.
Aaron Irizarry:
But I think start it. Just kind of like the design system team, just start making that thing and start influencing through delivery and then get yourself the space that you want it to be in.
Andy Vitale:
Right. No, that makes a ton of sense. So the other thing I want to talk about, so you've got a book. You've written a book along with Adam Connor, who I've gotten to know who I've been working with for a few months now called Discussing Design: Improving Communication and Collaboration Through Critique.
Andy Vitale:
And I'm sure a lot of designers that listen have read that book and have gotten really excited and gotten really good things out of it when it comes to critique. So the designers that are listening to this will like, "Yep. I read that. I know that. We're working on that every day."
Andy Vitale:
Some of the other listeners that we have are people that work with designers. They're not in the design space. They're leading teams. They're not in the weeds. They're actually running the technology team or running the marketing team or running the legal team.
Andy Vitale:
What advice would you give them on how to provide feedback or critiques to designers who may be levels below them or to even educate their team that work day to day with designers on how to give effective feedback? Because we know feedback is taken in many different ways, and a lot of times that's not how it was intended. So just want to dive in a little bit to that.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. I mean, and Adam will tell you this, now, you've got this critique expert right there, just on your team. Critique isn't owned by design. When Adam and I wrote that book, I mean, we were just designers, so that's the context we wrote it in. But if you read that book and read through the principles, those can apply to anybody regardless of their title or their role or their job family.
Aaron Irizarry:
When it comes to critique, though, there are nuances. It is good to know like, "Hey, if I'm a non-designer giving feedback to a designer, how do I share that in a way that lands with them?" And sometimes it's by asking questions. Sometimes it's by just admitting, "Hey, I'm not a designer, but here's the feedback I have." And it's really, there's a level of ownership on the designer to make sure that they're asking questions back and questioning for clarity and understanding so that they can help that person deliver those insights.
Aaron Irizarry:
Because not everybody, they don't even really train you to do this in school. None of the design schools are teaching you to critique. You may get some critique, and I've heard stories of people getting it to prepare them for the real world, and so it's harsh and it's not objective. It's not a dialogue. It's not a conversation. A lot of times it's just direction.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, I would encourage people to practice, to talk to them like, "Hey, designer friends. Hey, engineer friends. Hey, whomever. We should have an open and free exchange of feedback. What does that look like? How would that work for you? How would you want to have these conversations and start thinking about it?"
Aaron Irizarry:
I actually just did a, I just finished a course at Capital One. I wrote a curriculum for the Capital One Product College because they built a product college to help all of their product managers learn other things. Oh, product manager, you want to learn machine learning, here's these courses. So I wrote one on critique. And so, the whole curriculum is based on how to give critique in cross-functional settings.
Aaron Irizarry:
And so, finding stuff like that, thinking about how you can get people to want to talk about it, and then find ways to provide that training to them, I think is really helpful. But it really just starts with a conversation.
Aaron Irizarry:
I mean, I haven't read the book in a long time, in all fairness, but if I read back through it, a lot of it is... It's not common sense always, but it's like, okay, that makes sense. That's just a really good way to communicate. Oh, you listen more than you speak. Okay, that's good. When you don't understand, you question. You think about your intent before you give some feedback, is this feedback actually helping us achieve our goal that we have for this design?
Aaron Irizarry:
The little things like that can be really, really helpful in just getting design critique or critique or feedback conversations as a whole just off on the right foot.
Lisa Welchman:
I think, Andy, I know you have a list of questions.
Aaron Irizarry:
We didn't even talk about vegan tacos, man.
Andy Vitale:
I know. Well, we can-
Aaron Irizarry:
I made some banging vegan breakfast tacos this morning right before this.
Andy Vitale:
We can talk about vegan. So, Lisa, Aaron makes these amazing tacos that are vegan, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
I imagined.
Andy Vitale:
I look at them and I-
Aaron Irizarry:
[crosstalk 00:48:39] just said it six times.
Andy Vitale:
Yeah, I know. So anyway, we'll continue.
Lisa Welchman:
Aaron, do you make vegan tacos, by the way?
Aaron Irizarry:
Thank you. I never thought you would ask. No one ever asked me about that. We never talk about it.
Lisa Welchman:
I just came back from a week long meditation retreat after having just come back from a 10 day meditation retreat. So people, Andy's talking more probably because I can't get up enough energy. So maybe I should be like this all the time, so Andy can talk more. But anyhow, but my point was, it was a week of very serious vegan, very serious vegan, like not even eating yeast because it's alive vegan.
Aaron Irizarry:
Right, wow.
Lisa Welchman:
Very serious. So I'm all about the vegan tacos, so tell me all about it.
Aaron Irizarry:
So this morning I made some that were... So look, Andy asks me this all the time. He's like, "Dude, does your food really taste as good as it looks?" And I'll tell you, some vegan stuff, it's not as good. It's never going to be. Some stuff is. Some stuff's better. And I'm just constantly on a journey to find out what that is.
Aaron Irizarry:
But I have a few key staples. Like the company JUST Egg makes incredible eggs, and you can make scrambled eggs. The first time I made them, I did not tell anyone in my family. And I served them scrambled eggs, and they were like, "These eggs are delicious." And I'm like, "They're not even eggs. Ha ha, you just ate a bunch of mung beans."
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aaron Irizarry:
So I make some of those eggs, and sometimes I add black beans, and being Cuban, black beans are-
Lisa Welchman:
I just had, I had black beans just yesterday. Black beans, man-
Aaron Irizarry:
I love black beans so much.
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, black beans are the bomb.
Aaron Irizarry:
Life. [crosstalk 00:50:15].
Lisa Welchman:
They are.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah, they're so good. And so, the ones I made this morning had JUST Egg, all scrambled. And then, I had some vegan bacon breakfast sausages, and there's this one brand called Sweet Earth that does a vegan chorizo. And I just ate so much chorizo in my previous non-vegan life that I had to find it. I've gone through all tons of brands, and I finally found one I'm like, "This is legit." Because really all chorizo is is spices and sausage.
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, yeah, so you just, you need the texture.
Aaron Irizarry:
So as long as you get the spices-
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, you need the texture and the spice.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah, and spice, yep. So I finally found this. This morning, I made some, and just to add a little extra to it, I made some tots. I made some tots and kind of threw it on the top of the taco after with all those other things.
Aaron Irizarry:
And my wife is my biggest critic with my vegan food. She's always like, "Yeah, dude, I mean, that's good, but the real thing's better." But when I make these tacos, she's like, "Man, that's just so good." And I'm like, "I know. I know."
Lisa Welchman:
I like vegan foods that are native vegan. I think that's why I like beans so much, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
I am not into much... How about this? I'm not much of a fake meat eater, although, I really like a good veggie burger, but I like it because it's a veggie burger.
Aaron Irizarry:
Vegetable, yeah, yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
You know what I mean? I'm not thinking that I'm eating... Literally like, "Oh, this is a good veggie burger. So it's-
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
There are different ways of eating and different flavor pallets. And what I enjoy about the vegan diet, honestly, is just its lightness, right?
Aaron Irizarry:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Lisa Welchman:
There's a lightness to it that you can't get anywhere else, you don't have the same tired at lunch thing, unless you're mainlining breads and things like... At lunch, unless you're eating heavy, overeating, I guess I should say, it really leaves you kind of kind of light and easy.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. I try to stay away from as much... Like I don't eat Beyond stuff, unless I go somewhere and I'm out and it's the only thing on the vegan... Well, it's like their one vegan item they have up on the menu, I'll eat it. But at home I spend a lot of time with vegetables, and I found a couple brands of pastas, but they're made... Like this one actually makes a black bean pasta, so it's really fun to make it and it ends up looking like a squid ink pasta when it's done, right?
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can pretend.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. But it has like 20 grams of protein per serving. So I try to do that. I eat a ton of vegetables. I try to, every so often, I'll kind of find a thing, and I'll make like a fun, big meal with some type of replacements. But the thing with eating vegan is you can eat vegan junk food all the time too.
Aaron Irizarry:
And think about it, the thing to be careful with, especially if it is someone's purpose that they eat vegan, they're eating a vegan diet because of the toll that farming takes on the environment, be mindful that a lot of the things, the vegan foods that are made in factories also take a massive toll on the environment.
Lisa Welchman:
Right. That is my thing as well. I mean, there are ethical vegans, and that's one thing. And then, there are kind of like what you just described. And so, I'm glad that you said that because I couldn't quite wrap my head... I was like, "Doesn't it take an awful lot of processing power and electricity and machine grinding to make this as well?" And so, I guess it's something that we're going to be debating about a lot all the time. But I do make a very mean nut loaf, I have to tell you.
Aaron Irizarry:
Oh.
Lisa Welchman:
I have mastered that.
Aaron Irizarry:
Nice. Amazing.
Lisa Welchman:
I have, over the years, I know everybody makes fun of nut loaf, but a fine nut loaf is a fine nut loaf, and I make a very good one.
Andy Vitale:
Now, it makes me wonder what is using more energy, the vegan processing plants or the crypto farms?
Aaron Irizarry:
That's amazing.
Lisa Welchman:
Yes.
Aaron Irizarry:
I wouldn't-
Andy Vitale:
So, but... Oh, go ahead. Sorry.
Lisa Welchman:
No, I think that's it. I'm sorry. I could talk about food forever.
Andy Vitale:
So, Aaron, we're coming at the top of the hour, and just for those who've listened and want to be able to stay in touch with you and find out what you've got going on, what's the best way for them to do that?
Aaron Irizarry:
I mean, really, I don't really use Twitter very much like I used to. But Twitter's easy because it's just all you have to remember is it's A-A-R-O-N-I, so it's just AaronI, and that's the easiest way.
Aaron Irizarry:
Instagram, actually, oddly enough, I use Instagram probably more than any platform because I just, I scroll through stuff, and I find funny things that are funny to me, and look at them on Instagram. So AaronMIrizarry is my Instagram, and those are places to find me. Or AaronMIrizarry@Gmail, you can email me. We can correspond and have conversation. That's super cool too.
Aaron Irizarry:
Thank you both for having me. Lisa, it was great to chat with you and to meet you and to hear your questions.
Lisa Welchman:
Yeah, it was great to meet, chat. I think you said we met before maybe. Who knows? I don't know. Nice to see you.
Aaron Irizarry:
Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. And, Andy, my thoughts are with you as you transition out of pumpkin spice season into holiday season. I know both mean a lot to you, but there's different seasons for different things.
Lisa Welchman:
So thanks for joining us.
Aaron Irizarry:
Thank you so much for having me.
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